S&P downgrades US Debt

All these bizarre objections to this rating downgrade just illustrate how countries manage to destroy their economies through debt - By the time the problem gets big, everyone’s got a huge vested interest in every little bit of the pie, so the urge to deny the obvious is very strong. Republicans don’t want tax hikes, Democrats don’t want to cut spending, so everyone pretends the problem doesn’t exist or can be kicked down the road to some painless, nebulous future. In the meantime, anyone who says otherwise is a fraud, a liar, a member of the evil opposition, or stupid.

From the outside and with the benefit of hindsight, it’s easy to point fingers at Argentina or the Weimar Republic or other states that have gone through major fiscal crises and say, “How could you let this happen? Wasn’t it obvious that you were headed for a train wreck? Did you really think you could print your way out of a financial crisis?”

But from the inside, at the time, I’m sure there was a tremendous amount of noise and confusion as all the special interests fought to keep their piece of the pie and as partisanship allowed people to fool themselves as to what was happening.

And the same thing is now happening in the U.S. From observers outside the country looking in, the U.S. appears to be engaged in the same kind of madness that has brought down or severely damaged other countries in the past, and they simply can’t see it or won’t admit it.
.

The richest 1% probably thinks they can shield their wealth by having investments in foreign currencies. This is highly important to consider when asking why they would risk a bond downgrade.

The problem is there would be nowhere in the world for wealth to hide if a bond downgrade precipitated a dollar collapse. A dollar collapse would lead to massive inflation in China; and then the world would go boom. (Financially.) I don’t think the 1%ers realize that.

Yes; I think it’s quite likely that the average millionaire lacks your financial acumen.

The question is why. All the AAA subprime securities prove that they are at best horribly incomplete and at worst horribly incompetent and corrupt.

This is like the architect who designed the house that imploded telling me that my house looks shaky.

There will be no more comments about “the movie.” Stick to the topic and do not refer to “the movie” in any way.
(If there is information in “the movie” that one find’s pertinent, go find the original source of the information and cite that. OTOH, any more comments dismissing “the movie” will be considered a hijack.)

[ /Moderating ]

FWIW, here’s one of the fund managers mentioned earlier, who has been selling off Treasuries:

http://www.pimco.com/EN/insights/pages/skunked.aspx

“one of the” = “the biggest bond fund in the world” . . .

Well, one can also argue the rating agency is saying the best way to destroy the rating is to cut spending to pieces ala the Tea Party. Which should be patently obvious to any educated observer that a Tea Party platform of cuts would implode the US economy.

Look, you and I both agree that a combination of cutting spending, raising taxes and growing the economy (thereby raising revenue) is what’s needed to get us out of this mess.

I would also throw in tort reform and health care reform and a dash of not letting basic infrastructure (great public education, roads, etc) go to shit.

As mentioned up thread, just imagine what happens if the US gets downgraded from AAA. All other debt in the world is based against the US, and a downgrade in the US either competely breaks the system of downgrades all other debt. For those playing at home, a corporation can not have a higher debt rating than their sovereign nation. In other words, if the US is only rated AA, then GE and Microsoft both get automatic downgrades to AA.

And by definition, no other country has a better rating than the US, so I’m pretty sure they would have to be downgraded as well. I mean, it’s not like any other country in the world has a bond market anywhere near the size nor maturity of the US. Even if China wanted to, they couldn’t sell their greenbacks and put it into Euros. :o And it’s not like the rest of the world would want to buy the Renmibi even if it was convertible, which it ain’t.

Forget the rating number itself - even if everything just shifts down one grade and the relative difference between them remains the same, what’s being said is that there is additional risk in lending money for U.S. Treasuries. That risk will have to be priced. If that leads to additional risk pricing on all other currencies, then that could simply kick off a worldwide recession or worldwide stagflation or something similar.

Forget the S&P for a minute, and just think about the U.S.'s situation - it has to continue to borrow somewhere in the neighborhood of a trillion dollars per year, without paying any of it back. Where is this money going to come from? China’s GDP is only about 5.8 trillion dollars per year. It simply cannot fund the U.S.'s appetite for debt. Japan is pulling its yen home to pay for reconstruction after the earthquake/Tsunami, and is also borrowing money like crazy. Europe is largely in the red and borrowing money as well.

It looks to me like an unstable situation waiting for some minor or major crisis to kick the apple cart over and expose the rotten carcass underneath. China has been stimulating its economy and overbuilding its infrastructure, and is due for its own asset bubble to pop. If that happens, what then? What if oil goes to $200/bbl?

It’s one thing to borrow money to fund a necessary war like WWII, where once the war is over you can go back to a low-cost model of government and pay back the debt. But when the debt is being absorbed by entitlements that are growing yearly with no end in sight, the market is going to tolerate a much lower debt level. How much lower, we don’t know. By the time we know, it will be too late and the crisis will be here. That’s how these things happen.

This is really what the S&P is warning about. They’re trying to knock some sense into the politicians and the U.S. public before it’s too late. But instead, people are just shooting at the messenger and acting as if borrowing 9% of the country’s entire gross domestic product every year to pay off citizens who have been promised too much can continue indefinitely, or at least for a long enough time that the problem can be ignored for a while. I think that’s madness.
In an earlier message I said that U.S. tax revenues should come back to 18-19% of GDP once the economy recovers. What if it doesn’t recover? What if this is an ‘L’ shaped ‘recovery’ and the U.S. is about to go into its own ‘lost decade’? This is an outcome that I consider to be quite likely, actually. A peer-reviewed economics paper last year looked at the cost of debt to GDP growth, and concluded that debt loads over 90% of GDP could cost a country 1-2% of GDP growth. The U.S. is about there right now. So if the historical 3.5% long-term growth turns into 1.5% until the debt is lowered, then the U.S. can’t grow its way out of the problem, and the deficit will continue to hover where it is unless spending is cut and/or taxes are raised.

Unfortunately, spending cuts and tax increases both tend to slow down growth, so this is not going to be an easy thing to fix. And each day that passes without something being done makes it even harder.

As for tax increases, the problem with that is that there’s no will to really raise taxes on the side of the Republicans or The Democrats. Some of you talk about the Bush tax cuts as if you can solve this problem by rescinding them. What you won’t say is that Obama has no intention of letting all the Bush tax cuts expire. He wants to make the tax cuts permanent for the lower and middle classes, and only expire them for the rich. But that’s not much money - at most about 70 billion dollars per year - less than 5% of the current deficit. Obama’s plan to reduce the deficit this way is not credible, and everyone knows it.

In the meantime, the cost of the new health care plan has gone up again, as HHS has given 6.7 billion dollars back to seniors to ‘ease the pain’ of Medicare cuts baked into the plan (cite). That’s 10% of the ‘savings’ from the tax cuts on the rich, gone with the stroke of a pen without anyone even noticing.

There’s the first place to start - repeal Obama’s health care plan before it has a chance to kick in and permanently change health care markets. Leave some of the taxes and spending cuts in place that were supposed to go towards funding it, and apply it to the deficit instead. That’s the most painless fix, since no one yet is relying on that money. It’s also more than a trillion dollars over ten years, or a little less than double what you’d get from increasing taxes on the rich. Maybe you do that too, and apply the money to the deficit. Then you cut ag subsidies, cancel the High Speed Rail projects and claw back that 50 billion, and institute other cuts across the board in government services.

Couple that with some regulatory reform to lift the weight of regulations off the economy and get it moving a bit better, and come up with a plan to reform entitlements in a credible way, and maybe you’ll buy enough time from the credit markets to attack the deficit in a more gradual and less painful way.

The current budget projections show that within five years the U.S. will be paying more than $500 billion dollars per year in interest on the debt. That is money that is taxed out of the economy every year, and which can’t be used for funding space programs, or retirement plans, or infrastructure investment. It is a giant dead weight on the economy. It will slow your growth. Within a couple years after that, you will be spending more on interest than you do on the military. Soon thereafter, the combination of interest and Medicare expenditures will absorb the entire budget of the United States government.

This is not a distant scenario. You’re already feeling the leading effects of this particular freight train. We’re seeing increasing numbers of economic shocks and small crises. Things are becoming just a little bit more risky and unstable. It’s time to get your act together and stop squabbling.

For you military hawks who don’t want the military cut: It’s time to start thinking of the debt as just as big a threat to security as any other nation right now. You want to take a holistic view of national security and recognize that the U.S. is losing a lot of bargaining power through its increasing commitments to foreign creditors. Military program spending has to be prioritized a little differently if it means gaining more financial credibility and stability. Reasonable cuts to the military have to be put on the table - even if that means scaling back in Afghanistan and pulling some soldiers out of places like Korea, Okinawa, and Germany.

That is economics 101. If we go down, China has 3 choices:
a) Keep the yuan pegged to the dollar and watch their inflation skyrocket beyond the stars.
b) Let the yuan rise dramatically in value against the US dollar - and lose their largest export market.
c) ??? <— fill in the blank here, since you believe I’m wrong about this, obviously you have an idea about option c.

Every other trade-happy country on Earth will face the same problem - starting with the BRIC and spilling all the way down. America is everyone’s big export market. BRIC goes up in flames, and they start selling European and other bonds to stay afloat. It’s global game over. The rich have nowhere to run.
Me? I’m investing my money in self-sufficiency and farms. Anyone who believes a currency collapse is coming already have investments in this. And I’m not talking just money. I made friends with farmers. When money is useless I know who to call. All rich people who think the shit’s gonna hit the fan, are friends with farmers. If they’re not, they’re stupid.

Remember Zimbabwe. In a land where people were picking corns out of cow shit, the guy who owned a surviving farm was king. His stuff was worth more than gold.

Now excuse me, I’ve got to prepare for my upcoming treason trial. :smiley: :eek: :smiley:

This isn’t a GQ question, Sir Robin.

I don’t think you remember Zimbabwe so well if you don’t recall what happened to a great many people who did own a surviving farm. I somehow doubt these folks would describe themselves as “kings.”

RTF: Yes, how very observant. And the title of the thread is not “how does the Jpn sov bond market work?” You want an education in that, open up a Jpn sov bond mkt thread.

As to the actual subject of the thread, re Stone: S&P was fairly clearly indicating that the present path is a political will problem. I don’t recall seeing a view in there about whether it is problematic to have large government, only that trying to do it US style w/o proper fiscal decisions is leading to a train wreck. Your extrapolations are more about your political stance. Discussable.

This is a very simple question that has nothing to do with the fact that we’re talking about bonds. We could be just as easily talking about widgets, barrels of oil, or whatever.

You simply have to either show that the domestic buyers of Japanese bonds were in fact willing to pay a higher price than foreign buyers, or come up with a convincing explanation for why they would.

I can’t see why a general education about the Japanese bond market is necessary for either of these. But if you think such an education is necessary for your convincing explanation, then you can take your explanation up to the point where it gets into that particular set of weeds, and say ‘beyond here lie dragons’ or whatever.

You’re the guy who says the Japanese example doesn’t apply here. I’ve shown why it should. If you’re not willing to make a counterargument, then I will assume you don’t have the goods.

How do you figure that? I never said anything about big gov’t vs small government. I limited my comments strictly to the fiscal problem facing the U.S. I didn’t even draw a distinction between tax cuts and spending hikes, other than to describe the reality of who is proposing what, and how little effect it will have on the overall problem.

Did you finally just finish that text book I recommended last year?

No, they mostly buy gold.

Anyway, getting back to where we were awhile back, S&P downgraded Japan in 2002, and it didn’t affect the interest rates its government could get. The fact that 93% of Japanese debt was held by domestic investors doesn’t negate the reality that 7% was held by foreigners. And if the effect of the S&P downgrade was that the foreigners were demanding higher interest rates on Japanese debt, it’s awfully hard to see why domestic investors wouldn’t have also demanded those higher yields.

Since interest rates for Japanese bonds were unaffected by the S&P downgrade, one can conclude that foreigners didn’t let S&P guide their decisions. They could reach their own decisions about Japan, and they will reach their own decisions about the U.S. and its bonds as well.

The market price the risk over the last few days after the downgrade warning. Yields went down fractionally, so they obviously don’t agree with S&P.

And here’s private and public borrowing from the Fed’s flow of funds report :

Like Krugman says :

The US private sector has gone from being a huge net borrower to being a net lender; meanwhile, government borrowing has surged, but not enough to offset the private plunge. As a nation, our dependence on foreign loans is way down; the surging deficit is, in effect, being domestically financed.

You’ve got trillions of dollars in the financial system looking for a home, and US bonds are, as the markets clearly show, everybody’s favourite investment right now, potential downgrades obviously notwithstanding. And after all, why shouldn’t they be? The US government is debt-free compared to the US and other major economys’ private sectors.

For the redord:

No it is a question that requires understanding how Jpn bond market operates.

The articles linked adequately delve into this for anyone interested in knowledge rather than argument clinic quibbling. It’s very simple, most Japan debt is being bought by state linked or state operated institutionals (as I cited in one post, Postal Bank) that don’t give a flying fuck about return, as well as domestic private buyers that also for Japanese reasons don’t give a flying fuck. That’s a long-term solvency problem, as the articles all make clear, but short term gift to the government.

None of the major domestic buyers give a fig about S&P ratings, are under zero regulatory pressure to give a fig. This is in stark contract with European and North American institutionals, which build in S&P, Moody etc. into their contracting and also by regulation. None of this applies to most Japanese buyers. Bad bloody deal for people putting their money into Post Bank, but Japanese savings behaviour have been damned peculiar for a bloody long time.

Whatever, if you simply do a bit of reading you quickly can get up to speed on Jpn bond market. You prefer being pointlessly argumentative to score points to “win” an argument. Feel free.

No you asserted it should, you showed nothing about either Japan bond market or S&P usage in such markets.

2009 it was ~7%, in 2002 it was even less. I’m not a professional bond guy, I just follow for my personal investing decisions (and tangentially for corporate reasons), but I believe foreign buying accelerated in the past couple of years.

N, it’s not awfully hard, if one bothers to do even the slightest reading about the functioning of the Japanese savings market (and the dominance of buyers such as Post Bank, Central Bank, etc who don’t give a bloody fuck about return). Merely asserting it should be X or Y or Z based off of… well I don’t know, doubtless American experiences isn’t knowledge.

As for foreign buyers, there needs to be a look at the level of demand, versus domestic buying, since the pricing on the bonds is set by the demand (as well as who the foreign buyers are, if they are State entities doing strategic moves, such as to manage currency (e.g. China, Asian neighbours) that rather changes the analysis).

simplistically looking at Japan and its very peculiar financial sector and declaring that an S&P downgrade would have no meaning for the US, with an entirely different set of buyers (although the Asian CBs buying US issuances to manage their currency have similar incentives) is absurd and stupid. One needs to look at the effect of S&P or Moody or Fitch ratings on say European issuances, there at least the behaviour and pattern of buyers is rather more similar to the US than the very peculiar Japanese case.

Err, no, it simply means that a downgrade watch is only one data point in the buying decision. One can 100% agree with S&P AND believe that the warning may have actually decreased the likelihood of a debt problem by raising the seriousness of the issue. Also, of course a warning for downgrade watch isn’t a trigger for portfolio action like an actual downgrade is. Reading market reaction over a couple days after a warning really doesn’t say anything at all. Evolution over the longer term will.

That’s nice of you, but I got tired of your antics, and have moved on. Nice knowing you. :slight_smile: