# SABOT hit on human body **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 25, 2012, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sabot-hit-on-human-body/632590 "2012-08-25T08:05:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sabot-hit-on-human-body/632590/21 "2012-08-26T14:40:24Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > It makes sense if they were. Israel captured so many tanks that at one point they even fielded a few T-55 battalions consisting of refurbished former enemy vehicles. Was’nt there an IFV made from from the hull of captured T-55/T-62? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sabot-hit-on-human-body/632590/22 "2012-08-26T16:13:16Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Was’nt there an IFV made from from the hull of captured T-55/T-62? That’s where many of them ended up - as the [Achzarit HAPC\*](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achzarit). A very effective vehicle. It’s still in service, although it’s gradually being replaced by the [Namer](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namer)in front line units (which means it will probably still be used by reserve units well until the 2040’s. The Israeli army hates throwing stuff away). - Heavy Armored Personnel Carrier. ---
**Author:** ![Patch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a183cd/32.png) [@Patch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patch)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sabot-hit-on-human-body/632590/23 "2012-08-27T05:43:23Z")
> [@smithsb](#): > > The diameter of the penetrator is smaller (dimensions are wandering into classified territory). I’ve read 32mm to 40mm over the years, can’t remember where it is, but I expect whatever the current version is to be somewhere in that area. > [@smithsb](#): > > Kill mechanisms inside the target include, in no particular order; spalling metal from the tank’s interior wall impacting crew - ammunition - electronics - fuel, the depleted uranium penetrator shedding shards of its skin which are pyrophoric [burn violently in air] (penetrators are machined - let’s say not in the air) igniting most anything in the interior, there is a tremendous shock wave/overpressure as the penetrator and armor wall enter your living space unannounced. Recovery teams looking to recover penetrators described bodies as “goo”. Although you’re giving a good description of what happens when the Abram’s much-vaunted APFSDSDU penetrator strikes home, I will note that [a number of Bradley IFVs were struck by Abrams fire during the first Gulf War](http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/du_ii/du_ii_tabh.htm) and the crews/passengers largely survived. Notions of crew members being sucked out of exit holes I can only regard as so much folklore. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sabot-hit-on-human-body/632590/24 "2012-08-27T12:52:30Z")
Well, they put blades on a broadhead arrow to sever blood vessels. I assume the fins on the penetrator would have a similar effect, so even if there’s no hydrostatic shock to speak of, it would still be very bad for you. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sabot-hit-on-human-body/632590/25 "2012-08-27T13:34:51Z")
> [@Patch](#): > > I’ve read 32mm to 40mm over the years, can’t remember where it is, but I expect whatever the current version is to be somewhere in that area. > > Although you’re giving a good description of what happens when the Abram’s much-vaunted APFSDSDU penetrator strikes home, I will note that [a number of Bradley IFVs were struck by Abrams fire during the first Gulf War](http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/du_ii/du_ii_tabh.htm) and the crews/passengers largely survived. Notions of crew members being sucked out of exit holes I can only regard as so much folklore. In the example I gave the sabot went through the person in the turret. Not just into the vehicle. I guess you could dismiss what I saw as fokelore. A sabot round is actually much less effective on lighter armored vehicles like the Bradley than on tanks like it was designed for. When going up against APCs its recommended to fire HEAT. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sabot-hit-on-human-body/632590/26 "2012-08-27T18:05:57Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > That’s where many of them ended up - as the [Achzarit HAPC\*](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achzarit). A very effective vehicle. It’s still in service, although it’s gradually being replaced by the [Namer](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namer)in front line units (which means it will probably still be used by reserve units well until the 2040’s. The Israeli army hates throwing stuff away). Off topic, but I’m surprised the idea of heavy APCs has never really caught on. Aside from Israel, the only other APC made from a converted tank I can think of was the Canadian [Kangaroo](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kangaroo_(armoured_personnel_carrier)) in WWII which was extremely successful despite their limited numbers. There’s a very good case to be made that APCs should be as heavily or even more heavily armored than tanks as their role is to deliver infantry as close as possible to the enemy. There’s been a gradual up-armoring of infantry carriers from battle-taxis such as the M-113 to first generation IFVs like the BMP and the constant up-armoring of the Bradley since its introduction in 1981; but actually converting a tank remains a rarity. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sabot-hit-on-human-body/632590/27 "2012-08-27T18:12:38Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > That’s where many of them ended up - as the [Achzarit HAPC\*](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achzarit). A very effective vehicle. It’s still in service, although it’s gradually being replaced by the [Namer](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namer)in front line units (which means it will probably still be used by reserve units well until the 2040’s. The Israeli army hates throwing stuff away). > > - Heavy Armored Personnel Carrier. Finding spares must be hell. Black market or set up a new production line to fabricate. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sabot-hit-on-human-body/632590/28 "2012-08-27T18:13:44Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > but actually converting a tank remains a rarity. Possibly cost-driven? MBT armor is expensive ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sabot-hit-on-human-body/632590/29 "2012-08-27T18:21:20Z")
> [@wedgehed](#): > > I think the sabot would make you holey. Deuteronomy 5:12 ---
**Author:** ![MrSquishy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9e5f3/32.png) [@MrSquishy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrSquishy)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sabot-hit-on-human-body/632590/30 "2012-08-27T18:41:32Z")
> [@Patch](#): > > Although you’re giving a good description of what happens when the Abram’s much-vaunted APFSDSDU penetrator strikes home… That is the most ridiculous acronym I’ve ever heard of. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sabot-hit-on-human-body/632590/31 "2012-08-27T18:54:29Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Finding spares must be hell. Black market or set up a new production line to fabricate. Why? The T-54/55 was, I think, the most widely-produced tank in history; it certainly served in the most military forces. You can probably go to any scrap yard in the Eastern Block or Third World and find all the spares you need. I don’t know if that’s what they do, but it makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sabot-hit-on-human-body/632590/32 "2012-08-27T19:06:22Z")
> [@MrSquishy](#): > > That is the most ridiculous acronym I’ve ever heard of. Lots of dead Iraqis would disagree. Armour Piercing Fin Stabalised Discarding Sabot Depleted Uranium. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sabot-hit-on-human-body/632590/33 "2012-08-27T22:21:41Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Why? The T-54/55 was, I think, the most widely-produced tank in history; it certainly served in the most military forces. You can probably go to any scrap yard in the Eastern Block or Third World and find all the spares you need. I don’t know if that’s what they do, but it makes sense. It was quite a pain for Pakistan to get spares for its own fleet; there was quite a political scandal on this back in the 1990’s. Basically dealing with very shady characters. ---
**Author:** ![Patch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a183cd/32.png) [@Patch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patch)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sabot-hit-on-human-body/632590/34 "2012-08-27T22:26:11Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Lots of dead Iraqis would disagree. Armour Piercing Fin Stabalised Discarding Sabot Depleted Uranium. Yup, though it’s hell to monogram it on handkerchiefs. ---
**Author:** ![Blakeyrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blakeyrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blakeyrat)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sabot-hit-on-human-body/632590/35 "2012-08-27T22:38:58Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Lots of dead Iraqis would disagree. Armour Piercing Fin Stabalised Discarding Sabot Depleted Uranium. The acronym is ridiculous. Not the weapon itself. If you have 8 letters in your acronym, it’s time to give the thing a nickname. Like “Florence.” ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sabot-hit-on-human-body/632590/36 "2012-08-27T22:43:23Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > It was quite a pain for Pakistan to get spares for its own fleet; there was quite a political scandal on this back in the 1990’s. Basically dealing with very shady characters. I really have no idea about Achzarit parts - they may actually have enough spare parts cannibalized from captured T-55s, without importing new ones. Still, Israel has been developing political and military ties with several countries possessing T-55 fleets. including India, Bulgaria and Georgia. I wouldn’t be surprised if some shipments of tank parts have arrived in Israel at some point. Remember also that engaging with arms smugglers has a long and proud tradition in Israel: the Israeli Air Force’s first planes were wrecked Messerschmidts imported as scrap metal, and President Shimon Peres, among others, started his career by “acquiring” weapons from all over the world back in the 1940’s. What you call “dealing with shady characters”, Israelis call “resourcefulness”. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sabot-hit-on-human-body/632590/37 "2012-08-27T22:44:30Z")
> [@Blakeyrat](#): > > The acronym is ridiculous. Not the weapon itself. If you have 8 letters in your acronym, it’s time to give the thing a nickname. Like “Florence.” Unless the acronym spells something cool, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Blakeyrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blakeyrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blakeyrat)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sabot-hit-on-human-body/632590/38 "2012-08-27T22:56:20Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Unless the acronym spells something cool, of course. Unlike “Florence”. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sabot-hit-on-human-body/632590/39 "2012-08-28T08:38:09Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Off topic, but I’m surprised the idea of heavy APCs has never really caught on. Aside from Israel, the only other APC made from a converted tank I can think of was the Canadian [Kangaroo](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kangaroo_(armoured_personnel_carrier)) in WWII which was extremely successful despite their limited numbers. There’s a very good case to be made that APCs should be as heavily or even more heavily armored than tanks as their role is to deliver infantry as close as possible to the enemy. There’s been a gradual up-armoring of infantry carriers from battle-taxis such as the M-113 to first generation IFVs like the BMP and the constant up-armoring of the Bradley since its introduction in 1981; but actually converting a tank remains a rarity. My WAG? Most armies are dominated by tankers and artillerymen, who think in terms of vehicles with guns. The Israeli army has always been dominated by former special operations types, to whom infantry vehicles are solely for transportation. ---
**Author:** ![Mekhazzio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b38774/32.png) [@Mekhazzio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mekhazzio)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sabot-hit-on-human-body/632590/40 "2012-08-28T14:09:05Z")
It’s an issue of priorities, costs and scale. Vehicle design for survivability is in direct conflict with design for transportation. When you make something more durable, you make it slower & less maneuverable and reduce its capacity, which means you have less mobile force to work with. If you go whole hog and balloon the cost up so that the vehicle can do it all at once, you get fewer total vehicles for the same price, which again means less mobile force. When you account that many of the threats to a light transport are still a threat to a heavy transport, it makes a lot of sense to go with light. If you’re planning an operation, you want the quantity and flexibility. If you’re the grunts actually stuck in the things, of course you want all the armor and firepower that you can get, but the root problem is that there’s not much concern about what grunts want. A fraction of a percent higher casualty rates doesn’t have nearly as much political cost associated with it, at least in the US, as an operation that went sour due to insufficient force. It makes sense that the US Army is going lighter and lighter, and cutting and delaying their IFV replacement program, even without presupposing a tank bias. I’m not sure there is such a thing anyway; the tankers have been out doing patrols in HMMWVs in Iraq & Afghanistan as makeshift infantry to bolster the number of boots. (and they are none too pleased about that, to put it mildly) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sabot-hit-on-human-body/632590.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sabot-hit-on-human-body/632590.md?page=3)