# Sacre bleu! Le circonflex va disparaitre!
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sacre-bleu-le-circonflex-va-disparaitre/745219
**Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
**Created:** [February 5, 2016, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sacre-bleu-le-circonflex-va-disparaitre/745219 "2016-02-05T11:13:18Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)
#### Post date: [February 5, 2016, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sacre-bleu-le-circonflex-va-disparaitre/745219/1 "2016-02-05T11:13:18Z")
> **[Not the oignon: fury as France changes 2,000 spellings and drops some accents](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/05/not-the-oignon-fury-france-changes-2000-spellings-ditches-circumflex)**
>
> \#JeSuisCirconflexe campaigners fight back against decision by the Académie Française to ‘fix anomalies’ – although decision was originally made in 1990
> [@](#):
>
> French linguistic purists have voiced online anger at the loss of one of their favourite accents – the pointy little circumflex hat (ˆ) that sits on top of certain vowels.
>
> A change in the spelling of some 2,000 French words will come into effect in new primary school textbooks being released for the start of the school year in September, the education ministry and publishers have announced.
In a lot of cases, the French circumflex indicates an elided S (coût, maîtresse), and it seems silly to dump it for I and U but keep it for E (fenêtre).
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### Author:  [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)
#### Post date: [February 5, 2016, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sacre-bleu-le-circonflex-va-disparaitre/745219/2 "2016-02-05T11:30:17Z")
About time.
Let’s hope the other accents and the participe passé avec avoir are next.
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### Author:  [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)
#### Post date: [February 5, 2016, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sacre-bleu-le-circonflex-va-disparaitre/745219/3 "2016-02-05T11:59:30Z")
“Elided” s? I think you mean “historically attested but long since disappeared” s, no? While marginally interesting for philologists, its only practical use is in distinguishing homophones like _votre_ (your) and _vôtre_ (yours), which now will have to be inferred from context (should rarely be a problem).
It is odd that they’re keeping it for “e.” I mean, either do this or don’t do this!
ETA: Looks like they’re keeping it for “o,” too – probably for the reason I mentioned.
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### Author:  [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)
#### Post date: [February 5, 2016, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sacre-bleu-le-circonflex-va-disparaitre/745219/4 "2016-02-05T12:59:48Z")
So the circumflex is now the bête noire rather than being de rigueur?
Ah well, plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose, as the French can now no longer say.
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### Author:  [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)
#### Post date: [February 5, 2016, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sacre-bleu-le-circonflex-va-disparaitre/745219/5 "2016-02-05T14:19:01Z")
Mais they can, ê is not disappearing. The circumflex is not being thrown out, only devalued.
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### Author:  [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)
#### Post date: [February 5, 2016, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sacre-bleu-le-circonflex-va-disparaitre/745219/6 "2016-02-05T14:48:00Z")
It’s been a while since I took French. Can someone explain why the circumflex would be dropped for some vowels but not others?
> [@MichaelEmouse](#):
>
> Let’s hope the other accents and the participe passé avec avoir are next.
Accents make sense in languages like Spanish in which spelling strictly indicates pronunciation, since they actually show pronunciation. (In a few cases they distinguish that words are being used as a different part of speech.) In a language like French where spelling has little to do with pronunciation, they seem superfluous.
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### Author:  [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)
#### Post date: [February 5, 2016, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sacre-bleu-le-circonflex-va-disparaitre/745219/7 "2016-02-05T14:55:46Z")
This is all Greek to me.
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### Author:  [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)
#### Post date: [February 5, 2016, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sacre-bleu-le-circonflex-va-disparaitre/745219/8 "2016-02-05T19:42:29Z")
I didn’t know anything about the circumflex when I started reading this. I still don’t know much about it, but now I’m pretty sure circumflex **does not** mean “hoop snake” or “sphincter.”
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### Author:  [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)
#### Post date: [February 5, 2016, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sacre-bleu-le-circonflex-va-disparaitre/745219/9 "2016-02-05T19:47:38Z")
I just saw this post on Facebook, relevant to this thread:
“Je suis sûr ta soeur elle va bien”
“Je suis sur ta soeur elle va bien”
It shows the importance of the circumflex accent.
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### Author:  [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)
#### Post date: [February 5, 2016, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sacre-bleu-le-circonflex-va-disparaitre/745219/10 "2016-02-05T19:49:17Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#):
>
> “Elided” s? I think you mean “historically attested but long since disappeared” s, no?
No, elided is correct. For example, Latin Fenestra became French Fenêtre and Latin Voster became Vôtre. The S was elided.
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### Author:  [@funky\_little\_lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/funky_little_lee)
#### Post date: [February 5, 2016, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sacre-bleu-le-circonflex-va-disparaitre/745219/11 "2016-02-05T19:59:54Z")
> [@suranyi](#):
>
> I just saw this post on Facebook, relevant to this thread:
>
> “Je suis sûr ta soeur elle va bien”
>
> “Je suis sur ta soeur elle va bien”
>
> It shows the importance of the circumflex accent.
Quel bon mot! 🙂
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### Author:  [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)
#### Post date: [February 6, 2016, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sacre-bleu-le-circonflex-va-disparaitre/745219/12 "2016-02-06T00:01:45Z")
From what I remember on passé simple, it had a bunch of circumflexes, so those were already gone through obsolescence (always taught along the lines of “you should recognize this when reading old texts but nobody uses it anymore so don’t bother memorizing the conjugation”).
> [@MichaelEmouse](#):
>
> About time.
>
> Let’s hope the other accents and the participe passé avec avoir are next.
Wouldn’t it be easier to get rid of the être form considering it’s much less common? Or do you mean combine it with the imperfect, which bothers me from a historical standpoint but on the other hand I could never get the hang of the little exceptions, so adieu.
> [@suranyi](#):
>
> I just saw this post on Facebook, relevant to this thread:
>
> “Je suis sûr ta soeur elle va bien”
>
> “Je suis sur ta soeur elle va bien”
>
> It shows the importance of the circumflex accent.
À/A mes parents, Ayn Rand et Dieu.
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### Author:  [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)
#### Post date: [February 6, 2016, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sacre-bleu-le-circonflex-va-disparaitre/745219/13 "2016-02-06T01:46:45Z")
> [@Quartz](#):
>
> No, elided is correct. For example, Latin Fenestra became French Fenêtre and Latin Voster became Vôtre. The S was elided.
Well I’ll be darned. I knew that’s what the circumflex often indicated in French – as a said, a former “s” that disappeared – but I always thought “elision” was the English word that is “liaison” in French. In fact they have nearly opposite meanings – “removal or omission” vs. “insertion (of a sound where two words are linked)”.
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### Author:  [@Greg\_Charles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greg_Charles)
#### Post date: [February 6, 2016, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sacre-bleu-le-circonflex-va-disparaitre/745219/14 "2016-02-06T01:54:20Z")
> [@Colibri](#):
>
> It’s been a while since I took French. Can someone explain why the circumflex would be dropped for some vowels but not others?
>
> Accents make sense in languages like Spanish in which spelling strictly indicates pronunciation, since they actually show pronunciation. (In a few cases they distinguish that words are being used as a different part of speech.) In a language like French where spelling has little to do with pronunciation, they seem superfluous.
I believe that in French spelling is only slightly less coupled to pronunciation than in Spanish. In fact, most alphabet-based languages let you infer pronunciation from spelling after learning a handful of basic rules. As far as I can work out, English is the only widely spoken language where this isn’t true.
I’m also confused by this though. Doesn’t the circumflex change the vowels pronunciation? The “acute” and “grave” accents do, right?
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### Author:  [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)
#### Post date: [February 6, 2016, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sacre-bleu-le-circonflex-va-disparaitre/745219/15 "2016-02-06T02:14:36Z")
> [@Greg\_Charles](#):
>
> I believe that in French spelling is only slightly less coupled to pronunciation than in Spanish. In fact, most alphabet-based languages let you infer pronunciation from spelling after learning a handful of basic rules. As far as I can work out, English is the only widely spoken language where this isn’t true.
>
> I’m also confused by this though. Doesn’t the circumflex change the vowels pronunciation? The “acute” and “grave” accents do, right?
No, it does not. (Yes, the aigu and grave do).
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### Author:  [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)
#### Post date: [February 6, 2016, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sacre-bleu-le-circonflex-va-disparaitre/745219/16 "2016-02-06T02:25:02Z")
> [@Greg\_Charles](#):
>
> I believe that in French spelling is only slightly less coupled to pronunciation than in Spanish.
You’re very wrong. I took French for three years, and am fluent in Spanish. There are many silent letters in French, and many words that are spelled differently are pronounced the same. Basically, you can’t tell from hearing a French word how it is spelled. There are a few ambiguities in Spanish (hoya, olla), but they are relatively rare.
In Spanish, you can often drop subject pronouns because the information about person is contained in the verb form. In French you can’t, because even though the verb forms for different persons are spelled differently, they are pronounced the same.
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### Author:  [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)
#### Post date: [February 6, 2016, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sacre-bleu-le-circonflex-va-disparaitre/745219/17 "2016-02-06T02:50:55Z")
Colibri, it’s true you can’t tell how a French word is spelled just by hearing it pronounced, but you can _usually_ tell how it’s pronounced by seeing it written – not as often as you can with Spanish, but more often than you can with English.
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### Author:  [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)
#### Post date: [February 6, 2016, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sacre-bleu-le-circonflex-va-disparaitre/745219/18 "2016-02-06T03:19:30Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#):
>
> No, it does not. (Yes, the aigu and grave do).
Both do on an e, but I don’t think the grave affects a or o pronunciation, does it? Aigu is really only on e.
French has many rules, but they are at least possible to learn, whereas english has the main rule that there is always an exception.
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### Author:  [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)
#### Post date: [February 6, 2016, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sacre-bleu-le-circonflex-va-disparaitre/745219/19 "2016-02-06T04:23:39Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#):
>
> Colibri, it’s true you can’t tell how a French word is spelled just by hearing it pronounced, but you can _usually_ tell how it’s pronounced by seeing it written – not as often as you can with Spanish, but more often than you can with English.
Yes, that’s true. But it’s not nearly as reliable as it is in Spanish. Saying that it’s only “slightly less coupled than it is in Spanish” is wrong.
There are two aspects to how orthographicly reliably a language is:
1. How reliably you can spell it from hearing it.
2. How reliably you can pronounce it from seeing it spelled.
English is poor on both counts. French is very poor on 1, better on 2. Spanish is very good on both.
Although not a major language, Irish is probably worse than English in retaining obsolete spellings.
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### Author:  [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)
#### Post date: [February 6, 2016, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sacre-bleu-le-circonflex-va-disparaitre/745219/20 "2016-02-06T08:14:07Z")
Je suit dacors. 🙂
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