# sad state of marine corp boot camp **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 23, 2013, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sad-state-of-marine-corp-boot-camp/656458 "2013-04-23T01:52:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2014, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sad-state-of-marine-corp-boot-camp/656458/81 "2014-11-10T15:56:22Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > 😕 > > I’m pretty sure I’ve seen most of the episodes of _Gomer Pyle, U.S.M.C._ multiple times (and all of them at least once), but I can’t remember that _ever_ happening. > > A little help? [Scene from Full Metal Jacket.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCNqKrX1sx8) ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2014, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sad-state-of-marine-corp-boot-camp/656458/82 "2014-11-10T18:08:55Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Well, let’s make a quick comparison: > > 1964 - draftees who don’t want to be there. > 2013 - volunteers who want a slot in the Corps. > > 1964 - kids with no concept of nutrition, exercise, or health > 2013 - you get a chart with a workout schedule, and your recruiter works with you to make sure that you are ready for boot. You have been working out through high school in hopes of getting a slot, and the need for a six pack is part of dating on Facebook. > … Yeah, it is pretty obvious that there are some health-related things that are just better nowadays. At least in the US, widespread nutritional education, fortification of common foods with vitamins, lower food prices in comparison to overall cost of living, and welfare benefits like food stamps have led to a large-scale drop in nutritional deficiencies. There are similar situations elsewhere. For example, more people are completing high school today than, say, were in 1914. But is that because the standards for graduation are lower, or is that because teens today are more motivated to do well because there are fewer jobs for dropouts nowadays, because elementary school curricula have been improved and are better able to prepare students for high school level studies, because parents care more about pushing their kids to finish, or because the pedagogical techniques used by high school teachers today are just more effective than the ones that were typically used in 1914? The answer is probably all of them. > [@Llama\_Llogophile](#): > > Is it possible that the training has gotten smarter while less physically taxing? > > To use an inexact metaphor, I’m reminded of tennis and baseball players who need to be coached NOT to hit the ball so hard…Are the Marines perhaps making their people better by easing off on certain aspects that don’t yield as much gain while conentrating on more impoertant things? This is basically the concept of “work smarter, not harder”. So maybe grandpa loves to tell stories about how when he was in high school, he had to memorize hundreds of lines of poetry. You, however, didn’t have to memorize that much but you arguably have a greater appreciation for and understanding of poetry and can read a poem and analyze it quickly, but grandpa gets stuck on memorizing it and can’t actually explain it well in his own words. So what was the goal? Memorizing a crap-ton of stuff, or actually getting an education? Which technique worked better? ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2014, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sad-state-of-marine-corp-boot-camp/656458/83 "2014-11-10T19:17:44Z")
> [@grude](#): > > …what happens if I just ignore everything he screams? Will he hit me, do a little more dirty flirt talk? What? I only did Army Basic, and I was 26 years old at the time–so a bit more mature than the rest of my company. This was my attitude going in, and I honestly think the point in all the screaming & insults is to test a recruit’s ability to focus under stress. If you can ignore the scary/funny/over-the top delivery and just pay attention to the message then most times “what happens” is nothing more or less than…wait for it…you don’t draw unwanted attention to yourself. Sure, sometimes you’d get dealt a “Kobayashi Maru scenario” and nothing you said or did was going to get you out of it. But most times there was a method to the madness. The first couple weeks were focused on identifying those who had trouble focusing under stress or who resisted instruction, and making corrections. After that the tone changed considerably (as it does in _Full Metal Jacket_, by the way) and the focus shifted to physical toughening, team building, and general instruction/indoctrination. To the OP: different generations need and respond to different levels and types of stress, so it makes sense for the indoctrination process to change over time. In my experience, the distinguishing characteristic of a Marine is not the (considerable) physical and technical prowess associated with making war. Rather it is their ability to focus, to work as a team (even with other branches), and to hold themselves out as an elite and versatile force. I’m happy to say I’m not qualified to comment on the combat demands between today and 50 years ago, but I would speculate they are not the same. ---
**Author:** ![HubZilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@HubZilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HubZilla)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2014, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sad-state-of-marine-corp-boot-camp/656458/84 "2014-11-10T19:59:53Z")
I’m surprised no one brought up “stress cards”. The cards you present and the Sarge will lay off, so you can take a time-out. It just shows you how wussified-PC boot camp has become. Kids these days and their precious self-esteem. Dad, who did bootcamp 40 years ago, told me they use stress cards now. My brother in law, who did boot camp 20 years ago, said they never had stress cards, but they do now. My brother, who did boot camp 5 years ago, said they never had stress cards, but they do NOW. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2014, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sad-state-of-marine-corp-boot-camp/656458/85 "2014-11-10T20:10:38Z")
> [@HubZilla](#): > > I’m surprised no one brought up “stress cards”. The cards you present and the Sarge will lay off, so you can take a time-out. It just shows you how wussified-PC boot camp has become. Kids these days and their precious self-esteem. > > Dad, who did bootcamp 40 years ago, told me they use stress cards now. > > My brother in law, who did boot camp 20 years ago, said they never had stress cards, but they do now. > > My brother, who did boot camp 5 years ago, said they never had stress cards, but they do NOW. Just to be clear: your point is that all these guys are complaining about “stress cards”, but have no evidence at all that they actually exist? (But can testify that they didn’t exist as of five years ago) ---
**Author:** ![Abner\_Ravenwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c4cdca/32.png) [@Abner\_Ravenwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abner_Ravenwood)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2014, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sad-state-of-marine-corp-boot-camp/656458/86 "2014-11-10T22:21:14Z")
First of all, Happy Birthday to my fellow Hard Chargers. The next generation is always softer than the previous generation. It’s probably been going on since the caveman days. > [@](#): > > According to a certain person, a number of years ago Matsuguma Kyoan told this story : > > In the practice of medicine there is a differentiation of treatment according to the Yin and Yang of men and women. There is also a difference in pulse. In the last fifty years, however, men’s pulse has become the same as women’s. Noticing this, in the treatment of eye disease I applied women’s treatment to men and found it suitable. When I observed the application of men’s treatment to men, there was no result. Thus I knew that men’s spirit had weakened and that they had become the same as women, and the end of the world had come. Since I witnessed this with certainty, I kept it a secret. > > When looking at the men of today with this in mind, those who could be thought to have a woman’s pulse are many indeed, and those who seem like real men few. Because of this, if one were to make a little effort, he would be able to take the upper hand quite easily. That there are few men who arc able to cut well in beheadings is further proof that men’s courage has waned. And when one comes to speak of kaishaku, it has become an age of men who are prudent and clever at making excuses. Forty or fifty years ago, when such things as matanuki were considered manly, a man wouldn’t show an unscarred thigh to his fellows, so he would pierce it himself. > > All of man’s work is a bloody business. That fact, today, is considered foolish, affairs are finished cleverly with words alone, and jobs that require effort are avoided. I would like young men to have some understanding of this. From the Hagakure, written in the early 18th century CE. [http://www.csn.ul.ie/~arise/stuff/hagakure.pdf](http://www.csn.ul.ie/~arise/stuff/hagakure.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Abner\_Ravenwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c4cdca/32.png) [@Abner\_Ravenwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abner_Ravenwood)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2014, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sad-state-of-marine-corp-boot-camp/656458/87 "2014-11-10T22:33:17Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Um…did you happen to notice the scene where Private “Pyle” received a wake up call from the rest of the platoon beating him with bars of soap wrapped in a towel? > > Or perhaps you are familiar with the case of U.S. v Col. Nathan R. Jessup which occurred directly after the events of the documentary “A Few Good Men”? > Now obviously these are fictitious accounts. I’m sure actual Marine Corp vets can provide some details, but the Marines have been around a long time as an organization and I’m quite positive they know how to motivate some kid who doesn’t want to be there. If the yelling and screaming doesn’t work and a heart to heart with the DI doesn’t work there’s taking away leave, forcing you to redo boot camp, some sort of unpleasant punitive duty, even the brig or a dishonorable discharge (which will follow you in civilian life). > > Or you might just find it easier to just run those obstacles rather than have the DI in your face and the rest of the platoon treat you like a jerk. I’m not sure if things have changed since I graduated boot camp in 1995, but we didn’t have any leave for the entire 11 weeks of recruit training. We had one recruit who refused to train. After a shitload of Drill Instructors from our platoon and other platoons in our series were finished screaming at him for a good 10 minutes, our Senior called the MPs who then handcuffed him and took him to spend the night in the brig. He came back the next day and fell back in line for a few weeks before being dropped to another platoon that had started a couple weeks after our platoon. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2014, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sad-state-of-marine-corp-boot-camp/656458/88 "2014-11-10T23:41:17Z")
I realize it’s not as reliable of a source as His Cecilness, but here’s what Snopes has to say about [Stress Cards](http://www.snopes.com/military/stresscards.asp) in boot camp. Shortly, the Navy issued them to recruits for a a couple of years in the 90s. They weren’t a “get out of jail free” card, but a compilation of resources of people they could talk to or tips for dealing with stress. ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2014, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sad-state-of-marine-corp-boot-camp/656458/89 "2014-11-10T23:50:06Z")
“Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers.” ― Socrates ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sad-state-of-marine-corp-boot-camp/656458/90 "2014-11-11T01:29:37Z")
Couple of observations: I’ve been hearing about how the kids in Air Force Basic Military Training are getting the Stress Cards and iPhones and everything else. Note: This wasn’t true when I joined in 2007, my newest airman told me it wasn’t true when he was in, and it probably won’t be true seven years from now when some other new guy joins. It’s just one of those perpetual rumors, like the chow hall putting something in the food to make the guys stop getting hard-ons (because spending all of your time living and training and bathing with 60 other guys is exactly the situation where your typical red-blooded heterosexual male would expect to pop a throbbing staff of freedom). Another fun one I heard in Basic was that they put something in the flu vaccines they gave us during inprocessing to make us all sick so that Basic would be harder. I pointed out the absurdity of this (IIRC, my exact response was “It’s the Air Force, not the Marine Corps.” and went on to explain that when you get 60 people living together with little to no time to properly bathe, people get sick.) Anyways, with the Full Metal Jacket thing, it’s worth noting out the final outcome of Gunny Hartman’s treatment of the recruit, and his fellow Marines’ treatment of him that followed: He murdered Gunny Hartman and then committed suicide. Hardly an example of effective training (people also forget that Full Metal Jacket was, like Starship Troopers, intended as an anti-war film, but then see what Jarhead said about the existence of “Anti-war” films). ---
**Author:** ![HubZilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@HubZilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HubZilla)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sad-state-of-marine-corp-boot-camp/656458/91 "2014-11-11T03:28:36Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > Just to be clear: your point is that all these guys are complaining about “stress cards”, but have no evidence at all that they actually exist? (But can testify that they didn’t exist as of five years ago) My point was that every generation thought the following generation had it easier. No proof whatsoever that said stress cards existed, but they were sure the “PC kids these days” got them. When asked about Stress Cards, the “easier” generation said “Heck no, but they do NOW”. Even my brother, a mere 5 years out of boot camp, stated recruits now get stress cards. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sad-state-of-marine-corp-boot-camp/656458/92 "2014-11-11T14:59:43Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > Anyways, with the Full Metal Jacket thing, it’s worth noting out the final outcome of Gunny Hartman’s treatment of the recruit, and his fellow Marines’ treatment of him that followed: He murdered Gunny Hartman and then committed suicide. Yeah, as much as I enjoy watching that film (and Ermey’s Mail Call) I gotta say Hartman was a piss poor DI. He didn’t seem to know what to do if shouting and abuse _didn’t_ work. He didn’t have a fall back. Plus he tried to bully an obviously suicidal, rebellious person with no respect for authority while said person was pointing a loaded weapon at him. I think he was actually surprised how that standoff ended! ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sad-state-of-marine-corp-boot-camp/656458/93 "2014-11-11T15:08:53Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > Yeah, as much as I enjoy watching that film (and Ermey’s Mail Call) I gotta say Hartman was a piss poor DI. He didn’t seem to know what to do if shouting and abuse _didn’t_ work. He didn’t have a fall back. Plus he tried to bully an obviously suicidal, rebellious person with no respect for authority while said person was pointing a loaded weapon at him. I think he was actually surprised how that standoff ended! As part of my Infantry Squad Leaders’ Course, they actually showed us the first half of the movie as an example of how _not_ to train new recruits. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sad-state-of-marine-corp-boot-camp/656458/94 "2014-11-11T16:18:51Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > As part of my Infantry Squad Leaders’ Course, they actually showed us the first half of the movie as an example of how _not_ to train new recruits. Did you ever see Jack Webb’s _The DI_? What did you think of it? ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sad-state-of-marine-corp-boot-camp/656458/95 "2014-11-11T18:15:17Z")
If Capt Sobel had retained command of Easy Company and survived their jump into Normandy, there is no doubt in my mind he wouldn’t have survived the first day of combat. I wouldn’t want to bet either way whether it would have been a German or American bullet that did him in, though. It might have been a “Murder on the Orient Express” sort of thing. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sad-state-of-marine-corp-boot-camp/656458/96 "2014-11-11T19:29:13Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > Did you ever see Jack Webb’s _The DI_? What did you think of it? I saw a couple clips from that movie, reminds me of how the MTIs acted when I was in BMT. Why shout obscenities when you can just condescendingly use proper English instead? The worst thing I recall being called in Basic was “Nicklenuts”, which is so off the wall that it’s not even actually offensive. Aside from that, “Clown”, “Crazy”, and “Smart One” (used ironically, I assure you) were popular terms of address for trainees at Lackland. The instructors didn’t need to be abusive to get under your skin and force you to do better. They merely had to give the impression that they could be behind you at any moment to catch you doing something wrong. Our TIs could be surprisingly stealthy for people who wore steel taps on their boots. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sad-state-of-marine-corp-boot-camp/656458/97 "2014-11-11T20:57:58Z")
> [@stavechoker](#): > > We were pushed to our physical limets. In the beginning we were kept up for 2 days we were reduced to zero and rebuilt to marine corp specs. You can tell fish stories all day but here’s an indisputable fact: **Today’s US Marines are some of the most skilled and elite soldiers in the entire world.** The purpose of basic training - or any military training - is not to impress you, stave, or to keep doing it the same way for 50 years. It’s to produce soldiers who will win wars. And the U.S. Marine of 2014 is a war-winning machine. So what evidence do you have there’s anything wrong with the training? Let’s leave aside the fact that you are old and old people always think young people are soft and dumb and whatnot, and old people are ALWAYS wrong about that. Let’s leave aside the fact that half or more of what you hear about modern boot camp is probably bullshit. Leave all that aside and let’s assume your recollection of boot camp in the days of the Beatles is right, and it’s softer today. Can you show that it’s hurting the Marine Corps? Because by every contemporary account, the United States Marines kick five hundred different kind of ass. Their training, whatever it is, _works._ That is all that matters. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sad-state-of-marine-corp-boot-camp/656458/98 "2014-11-11T23:34:53Z")
In my experience at Navy OCS (10-15 years ago), I remember being yelled at frequently (by the Marine DIs who ran the place), but I don’t remember being insulted much at all. A few pokes at my weight and physique; I was one of the least fit officer candidates in my class, though I could still pass all the minimums (barely, for the running time). It was the toughest experience of my life, but looking back, most of the DIs treated us with a bare minimum of respect. There were definitely a few asshole DIs – I heard later that a couple were busted down to E-3 (a very low rank for a Marine with 10-15 years of service!) for having sex with officer candidates. Considering the power and authority they had over us, this is a pretty egregious abuse of authority. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sad-state-of-marine-corp-boot-camp/656458/99 "2014-11-11T23:59:01Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > There were definitely a few asshole DIs – I heard later that a couple were busted down to E-3 (a very low rank for a Marine with 10-15 years of service!) for having sex with officer candidates. Considering the power and authority they had over us, this is a pretty egregious abuse of authority. What happened to the officer candidates? ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2014, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sad-state-of-marine-corp-boot-camp/656458/100 "2014-11-12T00:58:55Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > What happened to the officer candidates? Probably kicked out, or at least blocked from getting a commission. Enlisted men are human and can occasionally mess up but still be more or less good people, but a commissioned officer is always an officer and a gentleman. Once one is commissioned, there are no second chances. If you fuck up as an enlisted soldier, but you didn’t fuck up _that_ badly and can show that you can redeem yourself, they will usually let you. True story. I came outside one day to find an Air Force Colonel (O-6) next to my car. He asked if it was mine. When I said yes, he said that he had struck it while attempting to get his car out and had been waiting for me so he could confess and make full disclosure. These guys live and breathe honor. Even an allegation of hit and run could tank his career, and he knew it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sad-state-of-marine-corp-boot-camp/656458.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sad-state-of-marine-corp-boot-camp/656458.md?page=6)