# Saddam Hussein Should be the President of Iraq **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 28, 2004, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saddam-hussein-should-be-the-president-of-iraq/271593 "2004-10-28T01:22:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mr.Niceguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ce7236/32.png) [@Mr.Niceguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Niceguy)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saddam-hussein-should-be-the-president-of-iraq/271593/21 "2004-10-28T05:57:37Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Of course the other thing you seem to be missing, **Niceguy** , is that what you call “unjstified homicides” by police are rarely, if ever, deliberate. The police don’t go out hunting for political enemies of the government and then execute them. Hussein’s victims include untold numbers of people who were simply on the wrong side of the political situation. > > Attempting to draw a moral equivalence between the actions of US policemen and the actions of S.H. is revolting. **JohnMace** , what I am getting at is the fact that 250,000 murders are casually pinned directly on Saddam Hussein. Do you think he personally killed them all ? Exactly how did we attribute these murders to him ? When calculating these numbers I would be willing to bet that every murder committed by the police and government agancy is counted and attributed to Hussein blindly without any real clarity of why the person was murdered. Propogandist love numbers. Guy robs a store and the cops shoot him. That guy is in the 250,000 I just about gaurantee. Yes he put people suspected of treason on the firing line. We put traitors to death too you know. Fortunately, we don’t have so many people in our government with serious aspirations for plotting a coup. We would execute them too most likely. Can you find any seperate statistics for people murdered in Iraq under Husseins rule that were _not_ attributed to Hussein? I can’t. When a cop kills a guy for good reason, do we put another notch in Bush’s belt ? Of course not. Just trying to get through some of the propoganda. I am sure he rithlessly killed at least some of these people but I am equally sure the number is greatly inflated with everyday homicides. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Niceguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ce7236/32.png) [@Mr.Niceguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Niceguy)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saddam-hussein-should-be-the-president-of-iraq/271593/22 "2004-10-28T06:01:01Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > No, it’s the murder rate and has absolutely nothing to do with your argument. I would expect, though, that accidental killings by police would be a tad lower than the overall murder rate, wouldn’t you? Just a tad… :rolleyes: Sure. The average for justified homicides by the police in the US is around 400 per year or 12,000 people in the same time frame as Husseins rule. This does not consider unjustfied murders by the police of which numbers are very hard to come by. And of course domestic homicide is altogether different but we keep statistics of all this seperately. I have a shrinking feeling that nearly every homicide in Iraq for 25 years has been credited to Hussein. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saddam-hussein-should-be-the-president-of-iraq/271593/23 "2004-10-28T06:20:10Z")
> [@Mr.Niceguy](#): > > From 1979 to 2003 Husseins regime killed between 200,000 and 300,000 civilians according to estimates. We don’t know the truth of the number so let’s say 250,000. This number includes the Kurdish who arguable were insurgent and militarily engaged against the government. Of that 250,000 it is estimated 100.000 were the Kurds. That leaves 150,000 others in 25 years of Husseins rule. That is 6,000 a year. Anyone care to guess the number of “justifiable” homicides committed by police and civilians in th US in the same time period ? Should we add death row ? How about unjustified homicides at 20,000 a year ? Governments and agents of governments kill people all around the world. Some more, some less and for all kinds of different reasons. We’re still not buying it. You can’t polish this turd. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Niceguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ce7236/32.png) [@Mr.Niceguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Niceguy)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saddam-hussein-should-be-the-president-of-iraq/271593/24 "2004-10-28T06:28:00Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > We’re still not buying it. You can’t polish this turd. Not buying what ? The US murder rate ? Not buying that Hussein would have to had ordered the executuion of like 25 people a day, everyday for 25 years to reach this total ? How were all these people murdered ? I can’t explain it. And I really can’t explain the relative lack of justified murders in Iraq during that time. Did no one but Hussein kill anyone in Iraq for 25 years. I’m not buying that. ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saddam-hussein-should-be-the-president-of-iraq/271593/25 "2004-10-28T09:00:15Z")
> [@Lissa](#): > > The population of Iraq in 1994 was 25,374,691. (According to the [CIA.)](http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/iz.html) If the 300,000 estimate is correct, that makes for a tiny percentage of the population that was murdered. > > Don’t get me wrong: these atrocities were horrible, and Saddam is an evil son-of-a-bitch, but I think that it might be that horror has been exaggerated. I don’t think your average Iraqi who kept his head down and just went about his daily life was living in complete terror. It appears that most of Saddam’s victims were dissidents, rebels, or political opponants, not just guys they grabbed off the street for no reason whatsoever. Kids went to school, dads went to work, and women shopped in the marketplace. “Normal” is relative. “A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic.” - Joesph Stalin. A quote from an average Iraqi on the street from the NY Times on NYT, October 27, 2002: “The only people who voted `yes’ with their hearts,” the man said, “were members of the Baath,” the country’s only legal party. Led by Mr. Hussein, it is modeled on the Soviet Communist Party. “Everybody else,” he added, “voted out of fear.” He continued at a breathless pace, suggesting that he had rehearsed for the scant moments he was likely to have: “What the Iraqi people would like to hang on their walls would be banners saying, `Yes, yes, Mr. Bush. Yes, yes, America.’ There are 22 million Iraqis, and every one of them has 100 stories to tell of their suffering under Saddam.” He gestured to the secret police building and added, “If you go there, you are lucky if you live three days, maybe five.” Link: [http://www.geocities.com/tom\_slouck/iraq/iraqi\_fear\_saddam.html](http://www.geocities.com/tom_slouck/iraq/iraqi_fear_saddam.html) Clink on the NYT link to get to the actual story if you have NY Times registration. I guess living under Saddam wasn’t _THAT_ bad. Just keep your head down. Slee ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saddam-hussein-should-be-the-president-of-iraq/271593/26 "2004-10-28T10:04:41Z")
Saddam & his sons commited atrocities and tortures that can not be told here against his own people. He ordered Chemical weapons used against the Kurds. His soldiers- torturted and beat Allied prisoners udring Gulf war 1. Wheil he troops were in Kuwait, they tortured the men, raped the women, stole everthing of value, destroyed what they couldn’t carry and valdalized the rest. His ordering of the oil fields to be torched is a crime against the environment of the first order. he ordered Missles fired into Isreal during Gulf War I. In other words, he has done enough to be executed for War crimes and Crimes against Humanity a dozen times over. Education was OK- for his own group. Women - and men- had no “rights” whatsoever. Legal system? None- just a totaltarian Dictatorship, with Secret Police, and organized and wide scale tortures and killings. WMD’s- the UN destroyed thousands & Thousands of Tonnes after Gulf War I. Yes, we didn’t find anything much the 2nd time around. But prior to Gulf War I, he was VERY active in his pursuit of WMD. There is no way that anyone can believe that Saddam isn’t a Monster. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saddam-hussein-should-be-the-president-of-iraq/271593/27 "2004-10-28T11:07:46Z")
> [@Mr.Niceguy](#): > > Education: Under Hussein, education in Iraq was nearly unsurpassed in the middle east “Girls and women in Iraq have meager educational opportunities relative to the opportunities available to men and boys in Iraq, and twice as many boys as girls in Iraq attend school. 29 percent of females attend secondary school as compared with 47 percent of males. The illiteracy rate in Iraq is the highest in the Arab world at 61 percent for the general population, 77 percent for women, and 45 percent for men.” > [@](#): > > Womens rights: Again, unheard of advances in womens rights in Iraq under Hussein. "After the 1990 invasion of Kuwait, the regime of Saddam Hussein imposed policies that resulted in severe economic hardship, discrimination, impoverishment, and oppression of women in Iraq. Many women were prevented from working. Presently, women comprise as much as 65 percent of the population of Iraq, but only 19 percent of the workforce. The regime of Saddam Hussein regularly used rape and sexual violation of women to control information and suppress opposition in Iraq and tortured and killed female dissidents and female relatives of male dissidents. The Department of State has reported that more than 200 women in Iraq were beheaded by units of `Fedayeen Saddaam’, a paramilitary organization headed by Uday Hussein." > [@](#): > > Western Legal system: The only Persian gulf state not ruled by Islamic religious law, all done by Hussein. “Men who killed female relatives in `honor killings’ were protected from prosecution for murder under Article 111 of the Iraqi Penal Code enacted in 1990. The United Nations Special Rapporteur on Violence Against Women has reported that since the enactment of that article, more than 4,000 women were killed for tarnishing the honor of their families, with the killings occurring by a range of methods that included stoning.” > [@](#): > > Social reforms: More ground breaking territory in the region. Human services initiated under Hussein unheard of in the Persian Gulf. Hospitalization for everyone. “Maternal mortality is the leading cause of death among women of reproductive age in Iraq, and it continues to rise due to lack of basic health care. The maternal mortality rate in Iraq is 292 deaths per 100,000 live births compared with a maternal mortality rate in the United States of 8 deaths per 100,000 live births. 90 percent of the maternal deaths in Iraq are identified as preventable.” _All of the above from the Findings of Congress, “Iraqi Women and Children’s Liberation Act of 2004”, [HR 4671 IH](http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c108:H.R.4671.IH:)._ ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saddam-hussein-should-be-the-president-of-iraq/271593/28 "2004-10-28T15:49:47Z")
> [@Mr.Niceguy](#): > > From 1979 to 2003 Husseins regime killed between 200,000 and 300,000 civilians according to estimates. We don’t know the truth of the number so let’s say 250,000. This number includes the Kurdish who arguable were insurgent and militarily engaged against the government. I’m not following you. You mentioned the killing of American Indians during the 19th century as an example of a horrifying. morally unjustifiable slaughter. I doubt if many on the SDMB are going to disagree with you, obviously, but it seems you would like to minimize or excuse the slaughter of the Kurds. What do you see as the relevant differences? That the Kurds were ethnically different from the Iraqi majority? Ditto for American Indians. That the Kurds did not accept the authority of the Ba’athist government? The American Indians did not accept the authority of the Spanish, Mexican, or US government either. Perhaps you could explain your reasoning. > [@Mr.Niceguy](#): > > That is 6,000 a year. Anyone care to guess the number of “justifiable” homicides committed by police and civilians in th US in the same time period ? It seems to me you are comparing apples and watermelons. Why do you feel that justifiable homicide in the US is at all equivalent to Saddam Hussein torturing his political opponents to death? > [@Mr.Niceguy](#): > > Should we add death row? Well, if you like. [Since 1976, the US has executed 938 people total.](http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=8&did=146) None of them were for crimes against the government. Keeping in mind that the US population is roughly eleven times larger than Iraq, can you account for the fact that Saddam executed six times more people each and every year than the US has done during the entire period? > [@Mr.Niceguy](#): > > How about unjustified homicides at 20,000 a year ? Again, I don’t follow your reasoning. Why are you including murders by private citizens in the US totals, but not in the Iraqi totals? > [@Mr.Niceguy](#): > > Governments and agents of governments kill people all around the world. Some more, some less and for all kinds of different reasons. True, but unfortunately you haven’t demonstrated any justification for Saddam’s “reasons”. Any your logic is rather flawed, if you don’t mind my saying so. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saddam-hussein-should-be-the-president-of-iraq/271593/29 "2004-10-28T17:34:01Z")
> [@Mr.Niceguy](#): > > Not buying what ? The US murder rate ? Not buying that Hussein would have to had ordered the executuion of like 25 people a day, everyday for 25 years to reach this total ? How were all these people murdered ? I can’t explain it. And I really can’t explain the relative lack of justified murders in Iraq during that time. Did no one but Hussein kill anyone in Iraq for 25 years. I’m not buying that. The fact you try to compare an _elected government_ with a dictatorships and think there would be some similarity is absurd. You missed out one detail in your statement, the fact that the US population is around 280 million, whilst Iraq has a mere 28 million, so with your statistics spread out, it doesn’t amount to much, but in Iraq? It does amount to something, besides, the basic rule for Dictatorships is the threat of violence and monopoly of power to be maintained through terror. Of course Hussein wasn’t the only one to have been killing, but he set up an appratus which condoned it and even encouraged it, you only have to see the excesses of his son Uday to have that proven. If you’re trying to compare Saddam with Tito, thats laughable. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Niceguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ce7236/32.png) [@Mr.Niceguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Niceguy)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saddam-hussein-should-be-the-president-of-iraq/271593/30 "2004-10-28T18:13:27Z")
Let’s get some cites here. Womens rights: > [@](#): > > Historically, Iraqi women and girls have enjoyed relatively more rights than many of their counterparts in the Middle East. The Iraqi Provisional Constitution (drafted in 1970) formally guaranteed equal rights to women and other laws specifically ensured their right to vote, attend school, run for political office, and own property. [http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/wrd/iraq-women.htm](http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/wrd/iraq-women.htm) > [@](#): > > Shortly thereafter it established the General Federation of Iraqi Women (GFIW).4 The GFIW grew to play a significant role in implementing state policy, primarily through its role in running more than 250 rural and urban community centers offering job-training, educational, and other social programs for women > [@](#): > > While women under the previous regime did not have true ‘equality’, many women were educated at the university and held high government and other offices. Will they be able to continue to do so? [http://www.hite-research.com/artwomeninirak.html](http://www.hite-research.com/artwomeninirak.html) When compared to western standards Husseins Iraq doesn’t measure up but as I said before, In the Arab realm, he was progressive as to womens rights. The right to vote, a steady increase in the work force until '91 and none of the religious laws for the covering of the face and entire body that still exist in nations that we consider friendly. The turn away from womens rights was a direct result of sanctions by the west. He had to muster favor with his Arab friends to ensure the survival of Iraq. **Shodan** > [@](#): > > You mentioned the killing of American Indians during the 19th century as an example of a horrifying. morally unjustifiable slaughter. I doubt if many on the SDMB are going to disagree with you, obviously, but it seems you would like to minimize or excuse the slaughter of the Kurds. What do you see as the relevant differences? The relative difference is this: Do we ever attribute the number of slaughtered American Indians as murders by the sitting president ? Jackson, Monroe and others regarded them as fit for killing and ordered the murders but we don’t credit these killings to one individual in the same way the Kurds are blamed on Hussein. What is the difference ? I don’t want to minimize the killings but it is ridiculous to blame them on a single individual. > [@](#): > > It seems to me you are comparing apples and watermelons. Why do you feel that justifiable homicide in the US is at all equivalent to Saddam Hussein torturing his political opponents to death? Wonder how many “political opponents” of our government, the ones who favor decriminalization of drugs, have been justifiably murdered and imprisoned by our government ? > [@](#): > > Well, if you like. Since 1976, the US has executed 938 people total. None of them were for crimes against the government. Keeping in mind that the US population is roughly eleven times larger than Iraq, can you account for the fact that Saddam executed six times more people each and every year than the US has done during the entire period? I am still trying to find the murder rates in Iraq during Husseins tenure. I suspect that, in fact, that the domestic homocide rate in Iraq has been included and attributed directly to Hussein. I know the man killed alot of people but not 250,000. I find that number very hard to believe. Can you give me any statistics for people murdered in Iraq in any year under Hussein that are not directly attributed to Hussein ? Surely there were murders and killings not caused by Hussein himself but I can’t seem to find any record of them although the 250,000 number attributed to Hussein is everywhere. > [@](#): > > Again, I don’t follow your reasoning. Why are you including murders by private citizens in the US totals, but not in the Iraqi totals? Because I can’t find them. That is what I really want to know. Are the national murders per year in Iraq all attributed to Hussein ? It appears so. I have seen the people interviewed that say there son or husband was carried away and never seen again by the police in Iraq. The family always say “he did nothing”. I then imagine Billy Bobs mom down at the trailer park saying the same thing after Billy Bob was shot by the state police in an altercation. “They just killed him. He didn’t do anything.” I know he mirdered alot of people but I simply think the number is greatly inflated by propogandist. Just give me some seperate numbers for domestic homocide in Iraq for the 25 years Hussein was in power. There is another 300,000 number floating around these days. People everywhere are being told that 300,000 Americans die every year from Obesity. It’s just propoganda. People do die from obesity but not 300,000 a year. They include everthing from heart failure to cancer in that number just for the shock value. We use this type of inflation for shock value everywhere these days. I think it is the same with the 250,000 murdered number. Certainly he killed some people but I don’t 250,000 is anywhere near the truth. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saddam-hussein-should-be-the-president-of-iraq/271593/31 "2004-10-28T18:32:20Z")
> [@](#): > > There is another 300,000 number floating around these days. People everywhere are being told that 300,000 Americans die every year from Obesity. It’s just propoganda. People do die from obesity but not 300,000 a year. They include everthing from heart failure to cancer in that number just for the shock value. We use this type of inflation for shock value everywhere these days. I think it is the same with the 250,000 murdered number. Certainly he killed some people but I don’t 250,000 is anywhere near the truth. They die through their own lifestyle, their own choices, what choice did the countless people murdered by Saddam and his crew have? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Niceguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ce7236/32.png) [@Mr.Niceguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Niceguy)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saddam-hussein-should-be-the-president-of-iraq/271593/32 "2004-10-28T18:37:59Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > They die through their own lifestyle, their own choices, what choice did the countless people murdered by Saddam and his crew have? [whoosh] You missed the entire point. They didn’t die because of their lifestyles man. Don’t you get it ? The number is not true. 300,000 people did not die of obesity. Damn. :smack: :smack: :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Niceguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ce7236/32.png) [@Mr.Niceguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Niceguy)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saddam-hussein-should-be-the-president-of-iraq/271593/33 "2004-10-28T18:44:30Z")
[Stan] What I am about to do is a trick. It is not real, OK. Wait, lets all take a step bak. Not literally ! [/Stan off] ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saddam-hussein-should-be-the-president-of-iraq/271593/34 "2004-10-28T18:45:03Z")
> [@Mr.Niceguy](#): > > [whoosh] You missed the entire point. They didn’t die because of their lifestyles man. Don’t you get it ? The number is not true. 300,000 people did not die of obesity. Damn. :smack: :smack: :smack: But whys that supposed to make the 300,000 who did die in Saddams regime a load of bollocks? Look, you can’t get round the fact he was a shite leader with an ego to boot, he thought of himself as the next Stalin Saladin etc etc, what he ended up doing was being the next leader being tried for war crimes and crimes against humanity. You can’t make him look good, he’s a murdering bastard. Case closed. And even if he didn’t participate in any crimes blah blah blah, explain his two sons excessive behaviour, or the Mukubarat, for fucks sake, read up before making an accurate statement. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Niceguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ce7236/32.png) [@Mr.Niceguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Niceguy)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saddam-hussein-should-be-the-president-of-iraq/271593/35 "2004-10-28T18:50:23Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > But whys that supposed to make the 300,000 who did die in Saddams regime a load of bollocks? > > Look, you can’t get round the fact he was a shite leader with an ego to boot, he thought of himself as the next Stalin Saladin etc etc, what he ended up doing was being the next leader being tried for war crimes and crimes against humanity. > > You can’t make him look good, he’s a murdering bastard. Case closed. And even if he didn’t participate in any crimes blah blah blah, explain his two sons excessive behaviour, or the Mukubarat, for fucks sake, read up before making an accurate statement. So you consider Hussein personally responsible for the acts of others ? His sons? Mukubarat ? He was a Shite leader ? :smack: and double :smack: Are you nuts or what ? read up for fucks sake. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saddam-hussein-should-be-the-president-of-iraq/271593/36 "2004-10-28T19:46:31Z")
> [@Mr.Niceguy](#): > > When compared to western standards Husseins Iraq doesn’t measure up but as I said before, In the Arab realm, he was progressive as to womens rights. “Apart from that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?” So your contention is, when Saddam wasn’t having his people murder, rape, and torture women, he was being enlightened and progressive as to their rights. If you are suggesting that Saddam deserves to be president of Iraq, aren’t you suggesting a return to the lower, Arab standard over a Western one? > [@Mr.Niceguy](#): > > The right to vote… I don’t think you meant seriously to suggest that a “vote” in Iraq was a very meaningful right for women. You did realize, did you not, that Iraq was a one-party dictatorship? > [@Mr.Niceguy](#): > > The turn away from womens rights was a direct result of sanctions by the west. I am going to need a cite on this. > [@Mr.Niceguy](#): > > He had to muster favor with his Arab friends to ensure the survival of Iraq. If he needed Arab friends, then why did he invade Iran and Kuwait? > [@Mr.Niceguy](#): > > The relative difference is this: Do we ever attribute the number of slaughtered American Indians as murders by the sitting president ? Jackson, Monroe and others regarded them as fit for killing and ordered the murders but we don’t credit these killings to one individual in the same way the Kurds are blamed on Hussein. Actually,yes, we do. [The Master speaks.](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/021018.html) > [@Mr.Niceguy](#): > > I don’t want to minimize the killings but it is ridiculous to blame them on a single individual. I don’t think it is ridiculous at all. Hitler didn’t actually kill many Jews himself, but I am willing to blame him for the Holocaust. Don’t you agree? > [@Mr.Niceguy](#): > > Wonder how many “political opponents” of our government, the ones who favor decriminalization of drugs, have been justifiably murdered and imprisoned by our government ? As far as I know, nary a one. Do you have credible evidence to the contrary? If you think you can show how thousands of drug legalization advocates are being kidnapped by the US government every year, trot out your data by all means. And especially if you have credible evidence that it amounts to some 6000 people a year (or 60,000, if you claim that Iraqi political executions and US “political executions” are at all proportionate). > [@Mr.Niceguy](#): > > I suspect that, in fact, that the domestic homocide rate in Iraq has been included and attributed directly to Hussein. I know the man killed alot of people but not 250,000. I find that number very hard to believe. Why is that? What evidence do you have that this is so? > [@Mr.Niceguy](#): > > Are the national murders per year in Iraq all attributed to Hussein ? It appears so. Again, why do you think this is the case? > [@Mr.Niceguy](#): > > I know he mirdered alot of people but I simply think the number is greatly inflated by propogandist. And your evidence for this would be -? > [@Mr.Niceguy](#): > > Just give me some seperate numbers for domestic homocide in Iraq for the 25 years Hussein was in power. That, I am afraid, is not how it works. You are alleging that the figures for people killed by the Ba’athist regime are inflated, and, based on that, want to return Saddam Hussein to power. On what do you base your allegation, and why should we find it persuasive? You are making an extraordinary claim - that Saddam Hussein was not really such a bad guy. What level of evidence can you muster that you should be believed? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saddam-hussein-should-be-the-president-of-iraq/271593/37 "2004-10-29T05:43:21Z")
> [@sleestak](#): > > “A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic.” - Joesph Stalin. > > A quote from an average Iraqi on the street from the NY Times on NYT, October 27, 2002: > “The only people who voted `yes’ with their hearts,” the man said, “were members of the Baath,” the country’s only legal party. Led by Mr. Hussein, it is modeled on the Soviet Communist Party. “Everybody else,” he added, “voted out of fear.” > > He continued at a breathless pace, suggesting that he had rehearsed for the scant moments he was likely to have: “What the Iraqi people would like to hang on their walls would be banners saying, `Yes, yes, Mr. Bush. Yes, yes, America.’ There are 22 million Iraqis, and every one of them has 100 stories to tell of their suffering under Saddam.” He gestured to the secret police building and added, “If you go there, you are lucky if you live three days, maybe five.” > > Link: [http://www.geocities.com/tom\_slouck/iraq/iraqi\_fear\_saddam.html](http://www.geocities.com/tom_slouck/iraq/iraqi_fear_saddam.html) > Clink on the NYT link to get to the actual story if you have NY Times registration. > > I guess living under Saddam wasn’t _THAT_ bad. Just keep your head down. > > Slee Yes, and there was also the testimony before congress by the young girl who claimed Iraqis were throwing babies out of incubators in Kuwaiti hospitals, which, as we all know, turned out to be false. There have also been the stories of Saddam putting people in plastic shredders, and though it’s completely anectdotal, without a shred of evidence, people accept it as fact and cite it as one of Saddam’s atrocities. I don’t accept the words of one man as an accurate picture of what pre-GW2 life was like in Iraq. What were the reporter’s motives? Was he _looking_ for someone to quote saying, “Thank You America!”? Reporters can be very selective in regards to which quotes they use, depending on what they want the story to say. I’m not saying that living in pre-GW2 Iraq was like living Disneyworld, but I think that what some in the media imply-- that every Iraqi lived in abject terror every day waiting for Saddam to come slaughter them-- is an exaggeration. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saddam-hussein-should-be-the-president-of-iraq/271593/38 "2004-10-29T05:50:16Z")
> [@Mr.Niceguy](#): > > So you consider Hussein personally responsible for the acts of others ? His sons? Mukubarat ? He was a Shite leader ? :smack: and double :smack: Are you nuts or what ? read up for fucks sake. What am getting at is that he set up the apparatus to allow his sons excesses, and for anyone else who supported him. ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saddam-hussein-should-be-the-president-of-iraq/271593/39 "2004-10-29T09:09:09Z")
> [@Lissa](#): > > Yes, and there was also the testimony before congress by the young girl who claimed Iraqis were throwing babies out of incubators in Kuwaiti hospitals, which, as we all know, turned out to be false. There have also been the stories of Saddam putting people in plastic shredders, and though it’s completely anectdotal, without a shred of evidence, people accept it as fact and cite it as one of Saddam’s atrocities. > > I don’t accept the words of one man as an accurate picture of what pre-GW2 life was like in Iraq. What were the reporter’s motives? Was he _looking_ for someone to quote saying, “Thank You America!”? Reporters can be very selective in regards to which quotes they use, depending on what they want the story to say. > > I’m not saying that living in pre-GW2 Iraq was like living Disneyworld, but I think that what some in the media imply-- that every Iraqi lived in abject terror every day waiting for Saddam to come slaughter them-- is an exaggeration. Some more links: [http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-04-13-saddam-secrets-usat\_x.htm](http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-04-13-saddam-secrets-usat_x.htm) [http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/04/09/iraq/main548570.shtml](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/04/09/iraq/main548570.shtml) [http://www.philly.com/mld/dailynews/6153325.htm?1c](http://www.philly.com/mld/dailynews/6153325.htm?1c) > **[In cells, telling reminders of Saddam's repressive regime](https://www.smh.com.au/world/middle-east/in-cells-telling-reminders-of-saddams-repressive-regime-20030414-gdglla.html)** From the last link “One older man, who identified himself only as Ali, lifted his shirt to reveal the scars on his back - from jailhouse beatings, he said. He was arrested in 1991 for participating in _Shi’ite ceremonies_.” and from [http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi\_m1571/is\_11\_19/ai\_101941821](http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1571/is_11_19/ai_101941821) “We had a picture of Saddam to show loyalty,” explains Bayanne Surdashi, 27, who was granted political asylum in the United States in 1996 along with some 6,400 Kurds who faced certain death under Hussein’s ethnic-cleansing campaign. “We hung that picture to trick them because there was a saying in Iraq that if you put your foot down wrong, you’re dead.” Yes, there were stories of torture that were not true. But there are many stories of torture that can be verified and there are stories from the average joe on the street stating that they did live in fear. I have provided links showing the torture took place and stories from the people who lived there. If you do a little googling you can find video footage of some of the torture(make sure you haven’t eaten first). How many cites do you need? Slee ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saddam-hussein-should-be-the-president-of-iraq/271593/40 "2004-10-29T09:47:56Z")
Come on, it wasn’t that bad! Most people probably didn’t live in fear of Saddam or his regime. Only people who had different opinions about who should be leader, those who practiced religion in a way that wasn’t approved, Olympic athletes, those who might displease the Hussein’s in any way, or those with comely daughters or sisters had anything to worry about. Sometimes I really can’t believe people would defend monsters like Saddam. On the other hand people still defend Stalin, Lenin, Mao, and Hitler so I guess I really shouldn’t be surprised. I know some people are saying he isn’t as bad as other leaders. That’s like telling me they should be grateful to have red hot pokers shoved up their ass instead of being hanged with piano wire. As someone else elequently put it earlier, you can’t polish a turd. Marc [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saddam-hussein-should-be-the-president-of-iraq/271593.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saddam-hussein-should-be-the-president-of-iraq/271593.md?page=3)