# Saddam & The Plastic Shredder **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 23, 2003, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saddam-the-plastic-shredder/163643 "2003-03-23T23:09:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saddam-the-plastic-shredder/163643/21 "2003-03-24T16:32:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Arturas \* > Returning to the ‘evidence’ part, now you understand why the death penalty is so unfair. On the basis of circumstantial evidence, i.e. no proof, it is possible to sentence a person to death. That is why it is better to consider a person who has been convicted to be just that, convicted, but not necessarily guilty. I am a staunch opponent of the death penalty. The merits of it are better suited to GD than GQ. In an effort to make this into a GQ answer, though, I think there ahould be some focus on the discussion that’s been tossed around above: the distinction between “evidence” and “proof”. The terms have been used as though there is some rigorous distinction to be had, some quantity of evidence that becomes “proof”. But unless we define what’s meant by “proof,” we’re not helping clarify the discussion at all. In the U.S. legal system, for example, a civil case may be won by “preponderence of the evidence.” The credible evidence must show, when considered in total, that the plaintiff is more likely than not to have demonstrated his version of the facts is true. A criminal case requires a much higher standard. A criminal must be found not guilty if the prosecution merely proves its case against the accused is more likely than not. In order to reach a guilty verdict, the criminal fact-finder muct be persuaded beyond a reasonable doubt. No reasonable interpretation of the evidence can support anything but guilt; if the evidence supports two inferences, one of guilt and one of innocence, then the finding must be not guilty, even if the guilty inference is more likely. So as you toss around “evidence” and “proof” - ask yourself what _standard_ of proof you mean. - Rick ---
**Author:** ![Dreaming\_of\_Maria\_Callas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@Dreaming\_of\_Maria\_Callas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dreaming_of_Maria_Callas)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saddam-the-plastic-shredder/163643/22 "2003-03-24T16:40:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mangetout \* > \*\*What was the purpose of this preamble? \*\* Sorry, it just gets frustrating to see that most people know only that Sadaam is a madman, but don’t know of his ideological motivations and how they relate to other world events. UnuMondo ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saddam-the-plastic-shredder/163643/23 "2003-03-24T16:41:05Z")
Just a few days ago, an acquaintance who says he served in Operation Desert Storm claimed to have seen the infamous plastic shredder. I suspect he was simply repeating a story, but who knows? As someone said, Saddam is certainly capable of using such devices. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2003, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saddam-the-plastic-shredder/163643/24 "2003-03-26T05:54:28Z")
Bricker, the lawyer to who I defer in legal matters said > [@](#): > > Originally posted by samclem > Actually, I wonder if an allegation rises to the level of evidence? If it’s not admissible in a court of law, then I don’t think it’s evidence. And in what way is this particular allegation not admissible in a court of law? What grounds are there for excluding it? To save you some time… it is admissible. I’m very curious to hear why you thought it wouldn’t be. I guess my point was, if someone goes to a prosecutor and says “xxxxx happened” and the prosecutor decides that it doesn’t warrant being brought to trial, then I would assume that that person’s testimony to the prosecutor wasn’t “evidence.” If the prosecutor chose to bring it to trial, then eyewitness testimony would be evidence. It might or might not be accepted as “proof” by a jury or the judge. I didn’t make myself very clear, and you were right. I guess I don’t know the legal meaning of evidence. When does an allegation become evidence? \*Please don’t take my obtusiveness to mean that I don’t believe the witnesses to the shredder story. ---
**Author:** ![MysteryFellow63427](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e4f/32.png) [@MysteryFellow63427](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MysteryFellow63427)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2003, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saddam-the-plastic-shredder/163643/25 "2003-03-26T06:15:08Z")
Is there any way to approach this from the other end? Are there “plastic shredders” capable of accommodating a full sized human body, wholly annihilating it, and strong enough that it could do 30 in a row? Upon googling around a bit for “industrial plastic shredders” it seems my question may be a bit silly, as there are really large industrial shredders capable of mashing up a body (follow links [here](http://www.shredder-ez.com/shredder/0023710_0023730_1.html#) for pics of large shredders.) But are such super large shredders for _plastic_? Why was the “eyewitness” told the body parts were going to be fish food, when the shredded corpse parts were surely not that small. If there are any dopers with industrial shredding experience, I’d like to hear what they have to say. Saddam’s regime is guilty of countless atrocities, but I, like **Lissa** am a bit skeptical of this one. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Tony\_Barber\_s\_Underwear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/58f4c7/32.png) [@Tony\_Barber\_s\_Underwear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tony_Barber_s_Underwear)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2003, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saddam-the-plastic-shredder/163643/26 "2003-03-26T07:01:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by samclem \* > \*\*When does an allegation become evidence? > \*\* An allegation becomes evidence when it is admissible in court. For example, let’s say Person A makes the following allegation : “Person B told me that he saw Saddam feeds bodies into shredders” That allegation would not be admissible due to the evidentiary rules against hearsay. Now Person B makes the allegation : “I saw Saddam feed bodies into shredders”. This allegation _may_ be used as evidence as it is eyewitness testimony. Of course its use and probative value will depend on a range of factors that **Bricker** outlined above. Person C makes the allegation : “Saddam told me that he feeds bodies into shredders”. This allegation may also become evidence, as there are exceptions to the rule against hearsay, including a rule that admissions made to a third party may be admissable. That is a pretty simplistic rundown on hearsay. Of course there are further exceptions and rules which someone with more litigation experience than I could explain. -Bubba. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2003, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saddam-the-plastic-shredder/163643/27 "2003-03-26T07:59:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by samclem \* > \*\*Actually, I wonder if an allegation rises to the level of **evidence**? If it’s not admissible in a court of law, then I don’t think it’s evidence. \*\* Of course it does. It’s just “inadmissible evidence.” Surely you agree that, say, evidence tossed out due to a bad search is still properly labeled “evidence.” “Evidence” is just something that makes a given proposition more or less likely – even slightly so. The statement “Bob told me he saw Saddam put people into shredders” is evidence. It is inadmissible due to the hearsay rule, but it is still evidence. It makes the proposition that Saddam does indeed shred people slightly more likely. Granted, it isn’t terribly _strong_ evidence (which is part of the reason the hearsay rule exists), but it is still properly called evidence. Now that tidbit of evidence alone (assuming admissibility for the moment) is probably not enough to prove one’s case by a preponderance of the evidence, and certainly not enough to prove one’s case beyond a reasonable doubt. But that’s a question about the relative strength of the evidence, not one of the characterization of this particular data point as “evidence.” ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2003, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saddam-the-plastic-shredder/163643/28 "2003-03-26T16:02:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by neuroman \* > \*\*Is there any way to approach this from the other end? Are there “plastic shredders” capable of accommodating a full sized human body, wholly annihilating it, and strong enough that it could do 30 in a row? > > Upon googling around a bit for “industrial plastic shredders” it seems my question may be a bit silly, as there are really large industrial shredders capable of mashing up a body (follow links [here](http://www.shredder-ez.com/shredder/0023710_0023730_1.html#) for pics of large shredders.) But are such super large shredders for _plastic_? Why was the “eyewitness” told the body parts were going to be fish food, when the shredded corpse parts were surely not that small. If there are any dopers with industrial shredding experience, I’d like to hear what they have to say. > \*\* Well, the shredders I’ve seen for trash and recycling do chop the objects dumped into them into fairly small pieces (a couple of inches square), and if one dumps the pieces into the ocean, then it’s reasonable to assume that they’ll be fish food. ---
**Author:** ![donnie\_darko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@donnie\_darko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/donnie_darko)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saddam-the-plastic-shredder/163643/29 "2013-05-08T23:43:59Z")
I think someone watched The Wall and made up the whole story to promote the war. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saddam-the-plastic-shredder/163643/30 "2013-05-09T00:12:04Z")
> [@donnie\_darko](#): > > I think someone watched The Wall and made up the whole story to promote the war. Yeah, dude, that was 10 years ago. I caught on when these folks were referenced as living people. Uday, Qusay, and Saddam died years ago. And in a rather nice touch, Saddam lived long enough to see his boys get killed. ---
**Author:** ![toofs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4491bb/32.png) [@toofs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toofs)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saddam-the-plastic-shredder/163643/31 "2013-05-09T00:13:00Z")
Would a zombie survive a giant shredder? Or would all of the shredded parts still try to get you? ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saddam-the-plastic-shredder/163643/32 "2013-05-09T00:14:03Z")
[Oh, and here is the Wikipedia article on the shredder, which I mean to include before.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam_Hussein%27s_alleged_shredder) ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saddam-the-plastic-shredder/163643/33 "2013-05-09T00:24:43Z")
> [@Scruloose](#): > > Quite obviously, it is not proof. The point here being, there is much difference between “evidence” and “proof”. Evidence, may or may not lead to conclusive proof of a crime. Eyewitness testimony does indeed constitute evidence. It does _not_ automatically find “proof” of anything. There is also much difference between an “allegation” and “evidence.” Evidence is what backs up an allegation, and may or may not lead to proof. Or is there a difference between legalese and epistemology? ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saddam-the-plastic-shredder/163643/34 "2013-05-09T18:35:14Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > [Oh, and here is the Wikipedia article on the shredder, which I mean to include before.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam_Hussein%27s_alleged_shredder) I can’t believe there’s a Wiki page called **Saddam Hussein’s alleged shredder**. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saddam-the-plastic-shredder/163643/35 "2013-05-09T19:54:54Z")
> [@Lissa](#): > > I also remember hearing that a young woman testified before the US Congress that she had seen the Iraqi soliders throwing the babies out of the incubators. I realize that this thread is an ancient zombie, but many people probably don’t know that those stories were proven to be false. The woman who made the claims was the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador to the US, and had been coached to make her story more believable. It was pure propaganda. Not that the reality was all that much better, but like they say, in war the first casualty is the truth. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saddam-the-plastic-shredder/163643/36 "2013-05-09T21:18:48Z")
The story I recall at the time was if Usay was feeling kindly that day, he would feed the guy in head-first. Of course, there were also the stories o him hamstringing sports stars who lost (apparently he was the guy in charge of the national sports organization), and other “interesting” stories. Sadly, it’s hard to say what’s true or false because people can be imaginatively sadistic. However, stories circulating during the run-up to war, with no prior documentation, probably are fabrications. (The trouble with live wood-chipping I would imagine is that it would be incredibly messy…) Who writes these headlines?? - Not a shred of evidence\* The Spectator. February 21, 2004. ---
**Author:** ![Bob\_X](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@Bob\_X](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bob_X)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saddam-the-plastic-shredder/163643/37 "2013-05-10T03:51:24Z")
“Fargo” was a true story, but I don’t know how much artistic license the Coen Brothers took. Was the part with Buscemi in the wood chipper fact-based? ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saddam-the-plastic-shredder/163643/38 "2013-05-10T05:16:56Z")
> [@Bob\_X](#): > > “Fargo” was a true story, but I don’t know how much artistic license the Coen Brothers took. Was the part with Buscemi in the wood chipper fact-based? The opening of Fargo claims that it is based on a true story. It isn’t. Nothing at all in the movie is fact-based. > **[FACT CHECK: Was 'Fargo' Based on a True Story?](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/fargo/)** > > Legend: The kidnapping and murder plot of the film 'Fargo' actually took place in Minnesota in 1987. Which isn’t to say that nobody has ever been fed into a wood chipper. While Fargo may be complete fiction, a woman named Helle Crafts was murdered by her husband, who then used a wood chipper to dispose of the body. > **[Murder of Helle Crafts](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Helle_Crafts)** > > Helle Crafts (.mw-parser-output .IPA-label-small{font-size:85%}.mw-parser-output .references .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .infobox .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .navbox .IPA-label-small{font-size:100%}English: /ˈhɛlə ˈkræfts/ ⓘ; born Helle Lorck Nielsen; July 7, 1947 – November 19, 1986) was a Danish flight attendant who was murdered by her husband, Eastern Air Lines pilot Richard Crafts. Her death led to the state of Connecticut's first murder conviction without the victim's body. He... ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saddam-the-plastic-shredder/163643/39 "2013-05-10T06:27:04Z")
The claim was bullshit? I am shocked I tell you, shocked. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saddam-the-plastic-shredder/163643/40 "2013-05-10T07:20:15Z")
> [@Colophon](#): > > I can’t believe there’s a Wiki page called **Saddam Hussein’s alleged shredder**. Tribute band name! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saddam-the-plastic-shredder/163643.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saddam-the-plastic-shredder/163643.md?page=3)