# SAG-AFTRA strike is a go! (Tentative agreement to end strike 2023-11-08) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 13, 2023, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sag-aftra-strike-is-a-go-tentative-agreement-to-end-strike-2023-11-08/987002 "2023-07-13T20:31:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2023, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sag-aftra-strike-is-a-go-tentative-agreement-to-end-strike-2023-11-08/987002/201 "2023-08-28T18:08:36Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > No, you’re not supporting them. The context at that point was not whether or not you support the general concept of a union, but was discussing when you support a particular cause by a particular union. You said that, even when you support them, you also support the scab who tries to steal their job and undermine their cause. I support their right to strike and may even support the reason for the strike. I also support the right of of a non-union worker to be employed to do the jobs that the striking workers are not. Yes, that means that in some cases I’ll support the rights of people to do things that I have a moral problem with. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2023, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sag-aftra-strike-is-a-go-tentative-agreement-to-end-strike-2023-11-08/987002/202 "2023-08-28T18:14:53Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > > [@BigT](#): > > > > You have a moral responsibility to help your fellow workers, and not aid the rich assholes in exploiting them. ⁢ > > You call it a “moral issue”, I don’t. Party _a_ says I don’t think this is a high enough wage for this job, and I won’t do it unless you pay me more. Party _b_ says the pay seems acceptable to me, I’ll take the job. There is no reason that party _b_ shouldn’t be allowed to take the job and no obligation to party _a_ to not take it. ⁢ And to make it not a moral issue, you had to remove the union. It’s just person A vs person B, rather than person A working to help a ton of other people vs. person B who is only out for themselves. Person A, if they get their way, helps a lot of other people. Person B doesn’t. That definitely has a moral component to it. Helping others is the cornerstone of morality. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2023, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sag-aftra-strike-is-a-go-tentative-agreement-to-end-strike-2023-11-08/987002/203 "2023-08-28T18:16:04Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Why on earth shouldn’t they be free to negotiate the contract they want to negotiate? Why are you limiting the union members’ freedom of association like this? Certain contractual obligations shouldn’t be allowed no matter whether they are freely negotiated or not. They do not pass the “reasonable” sniff test. Trying to exert control over how a non-union worker operates merely because of their union status and nothing to do with their behaviour is, in my opinion, wrong. You disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2023, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sag-aftra-strike-is-a-go-tentative-agreement-to-end-strike-2023-11-08/987002/204 "2023-08-28T18:17:59Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Trying to exert control over how a non-union worker operates merely because of their union status and nothing to do with their behaviour is, in my opinion, wrong. But it has everything to do with their behavior, as evidenced by the fact that non-union workers weaken unions and make it much harder for unions to negotiate for better working conditions. A Nazi-slogan-shouting coworker negatively impacts my worklife, by making me hear Nazi slogans. A non-union coworker negatively impacts my worklife, by making it harder for me to negotiate for better conditions. It’s factually incorrect to say that it has nothing to do with their behavior. Edit: as a corollary, if my union membership requires something _not_ behavior-related, such as “Must be Anglo Saxon,” then I agree that requiring union membership for all workers should not be available as a contract negotiation. But I’m unaware of any union memberships that require something not related to behavior for membership. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2023, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sag-aftra-strike-is-a-go-tentative-agreement-to-end-strike-2023-11-08/987002/205 "2023-08-28T18:28:59Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > But it has everything to do with their behavior, as evidenced by the fact that non-union workers weaken unions and make it much harder for unions to negotiate for better working conditions. I strongly disagree that freely choosing _not_ be a member of a union is in some way a “behaviour” that can and should lead to the restrictions that you suggest. You may not like the fact that some or many of your colleagues choose not to join a union. Feel free to strike over it. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2023, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sag-aftra-strike-is-a-go-tentative-agreement-to-end-strike-2023-11-08/987002/206 "2023-08-28T18:31:40Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > You may not like the fact that some or many of your colleagues choose not to join a union. Feel free to strike over it. uh, yeah? Strike to change our contract so that only union members are hired? What else would such a strike consist of? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2023, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sag-aftra-strike-is-a-go-tentative-agreement-to-end-strike-2023-11-08/987002/207 "2023-08-28T18:32:44Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > uh, yeah? Strike to change our contract so that only union members are hired? What else would such a strike consist of? And where I live such a demand would be illegal, and rightly so. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2023, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sag-aftra-strike-is-a-go-tentative-agreement-to-end-strike-2023-11-08/987002/208 "2023-08-28T18:35:17Z")
So “feel free to strike over it” means what? “Feel free to strike for an illegal demand”? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2023, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sag-aftra-strike-is-a-go-tentative-agreement-to-end-strike-2023-11-08/987002/209 "2023-08-28T18:37:05Z")
I am curious how a strike is supposed to do anything, when the employer faces absolutely no repercussions for firing everyone and hiring new workers who are willing to be underpaid or mistreated. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2023, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sag-aftra-strike-is-a-go-tentative-agreement-to-end-strike-2023-11-08/987002/210 "2023-08-28T18:38:57Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > So “feel free to strike over it” means what? “Feel free to strike for an illegal demand”? If you feel strongly enough that such a provision should not be illegal then…yes. I’d support your right to do so and yet would not support your goals. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2023, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sag-aftra-strike-is-a-go-tentative-agreement-to-end-strike-2023-11-08/987002/211 "2023-08-28T18:42:18Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I am curious how a strike is supposed to do anything, when the employer faces absolutely no repercussions for firing everyone and hiring new workers who are willing to be underpaid or mistreated “no repercussions”? Hiring and training are time-consuming and expensive. If the work is particularly skilled then the loss of all that expertise on strike is a major blow and not to be taken lightly. If, of course, the work is easily done or low-skilled, or in a low impact and discretionary area then it may be that the strikers will hold less power. ETA - also, I said nothing about “firing” anyone. That should not be allowed in a legally held strike. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2023, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sag-aftra-strike-is-a-go-tentative-agreement-to-end-strike-2023-11-08/987002/212 "2023-08-28T18:50:23Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > > [@BigT](#): > > > > No, you’re not supporting them. The context at that point was not whether or not you support the general concept of a union, but was discussing when you support a particular cause by a particular union. You said that, even when you support them, you also support the scab who tries to steal their job and undermine their cause. ⁢ > > I support their right to strike and may even support the reason for the strike. I also support the right of of a non-union worker to be employed to do the jobs that the striking workers are not. > > Yes, that means that in some cases I’ll support the rights of people to do things that I have a moral problem with. ⁢ That second right is one of your own creation, though. It doesn’t inherently exist. One does not inherently have the right to take someone else’s job. Yes, in the US, we have “right to work” which basically means that they can fire you for whatever reason. But a union-run strike is the exception. Your job is guaranteed to continue to be yours. That is what gives unions power over people who just get together and strike on their own. They cannot be replaced. You are not advocating for the rights of people you disagree with. You’re creating a right for people who you claim to disagree with, but are actively helping with their goals. That is not support. And my position on that will not change. You can’t argue that you are pro-union and also be pro-scab. Those are completely opposite positions. Crossing a picket line is something that people who support unions cannot support. Even if they don’t support the union’s cause, crossing the picket line is not okay, because it justifies crossing your own picket line if one occurs. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2023, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sag-aftra-strike-is-a-go-tentative-agreement-to-end-strike-2023-11-08/987002/213 "2023-08-28T18:53:51Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > That second right is one of your own creation, though. It doesn’t inherently exist no rights “inherently exist” > [@BigT](#): > > One does not inherently have the right to take someone else’s job. I agree, but people should have the right to be hired (and for employers to hire) to cover for people who are currently not carrying out their jobs. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2023, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sag-aftra-strike-is-a-go-tentative-agreement-to-end-strike-2023-11-08/987002/214 "2023-08-28T19:03:57Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > If you feel strongly enough that such a provision should not be illegal then…yes. I feel like I’m in a Eugene Ionesco play. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2023, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sag-aftra-strike-is-a-go-tentative-agreement-to-end-strike-2023-11-08/987002/215 "2023-08-28T19:12:09Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I feel like I’m in a Eugene Ionesco play. If something is illegal and you think it shouldn’t be then you are perfectly free to take whatever protest action you think necessary to change it. I don’t think that is such a strange concept. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2023, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sag-aftra-strike-is-a-go-tentative-agreement-to-end-strike-2023-11-08/987002/216 "2023-08-28T19:13:27Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I agree, but people should have the right to be hired (and for employers to hire) to cover for people who are currently not carrying out their jobs. ⁢ And that is what I am against, because it undermines the power of the unions. The one tool against exploitation that workers have. Scabbing harms workers, and thus I cannot support it. I mean, in reality, people can scab. It happens. But I do not support it as some sort of right, as some sort of thing I have to accept, even if I don’t like it. There’s a reason why scabbing is considered such a horrible thing, even if you’re not part of the union in question. Heck, it’s not uncommon to disagree with the union’s cause but still see a scab as the lowest of the low. I support people’s rights to be a non-union worker. But not their right to take over a union job during an active strike. I make only an exception for those who are in dire need, who have no other choice. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2023, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sag-aftra-strike-is-a-go-tentative-agreement-to-end-strike-2023-11-08/987002/217 "2023-08-28T19:19:35Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I support people’s rights to be a non-union worker. But not their right to take over a union job during an active strike. I make only an exception for those who are in dire need, who have no other choice. Then we will have to simply disagree. The employer should be free to employ non-union workers to plug the gap. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2023, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sag-aftra-strike-is-a-go-tentative-agreement-to-end-strike-2023-11-08/987002/218 "2023-08-28T19:21:13Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > > [@BigT](#): > > > > I support people’s rights to be a non-union worker. But not their right to take over a union job during an active strike. I make only an exception for those who are in dire need, who have no other choice. ⁢ > > Then we will have to simply disagree. The employer should be free to employ non-union workers to plug the gap. ⁢ And I can’t see any reason to support that other than to try and undermine the very concept of a union. How does your position make the world better? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2023, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sag-aftra-strike-is-a-go-tentative-agreement-to-end-strike-2023-11-08/987002/219 "2023-08-28T19:28:42Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > If something is illegal and you think it shouldn’t be then you are perfectly free to take whatever protest action you think necessary to change it. I don’t think that is such a strange concept. It’s absurdist drama because labor strikes are almost never about changing laws; and the main area of exception, strikes by public sector workers, aren’t relevant in this thread. Striking to change the law about points of contract the law allows for purposes of striking to change contracts is straight out of the Bald Sopranist. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2023, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sag-aftra-strike-is-a-go-tentative-agreement-to-end-strike-2023-11-08/987002/220 "2023-08-28T19:29:50Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > The employer should be free to employ non-union workers to plug the gap. And union workers should be free to agree en masse not to work for that employer. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sag-aftra-strike-is-a-go-tentative-agreement-to-end-strike-2023-11-08/987002.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sag-aftra-strike-is-a-go-tentative-agreement-to-end-strike-2023-11-08/987002.md?page=12)