# Sage Rat on Slavery **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 22, 2016, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843 "2016-01-22T02:32:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/181 "2016-01-23T15:00:59Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > True, and based on what I know about humanity, I would accept that the average male slave owner probably had sex (which, because of the position, can effectively be called rape) with at least some of his slaves. > > People are generally better at justifying sexual advances on women than they are at justifying sadism. Earlier you talked about punishment, as a parent punishes a child. Now it’s sadism? rape amd “punishment” were no doubt common, but sadism is rare? Is that your position? ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/182 "2016-01-23T15:28:04Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > I’m not endorsing or white-washing any of these things. I’m sure Richard Verrall would say that he’s not endorsing or white-washing the Holocaust. He’d be wrong, though. Perhaps you are stupid enough to sincerely believe your own vile bullshit, but that doesn’t make it true. Even comparing you to Holocaust deniers is probably giving you too much credit. Holocaust deniers usually claim that the Nazis had no policy of exterminating Jews at all rather than acknowledging that this did happen but claiming that the Jews were happy in the death camps and would have agreed that they deserved to be killed. ---
**Author:** ![zweisamkeit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zweisamkeit/32/4360_2.png) [@zweisamkeit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zweisamkeit)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/183 "2016-01-23T17:19:40Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > What a fucking prevaricating arsehole. This was such a disgusting sentence. Mighty magnanimous of him, allowing that it can “effectively be called rape”. Because of the position, though! That’s all! Goddamn, this is a major example of how, in his [del]oral diarrhea[/del] “musings”, only the white slave-owners are PEOPLE. The slaves are literally just objects for the slave-owner to use. I mean, I GUESS that TECHNICALLY it’s rape, or whatever. :: Vomits :: ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/184 "2016-01-23T18:04:41Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > I write with equivocations because I’ve been writing on the Straight Dope for **something like** 15 years, and it’s the only way not to have nitpickers jump down your throat for every possible thing you say. How’s that working out for ya, dipshit? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/185 "2016-01-23T18:50:52Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > So if the slaves are mostly going to respond to negative feedback and you mostly don’t want to hurt people, let alone for arbitrary reasons, you’re going to give them a talking to before considering anything more than that. I’d venture to guess that even after a talking to, a lot of slaves were made to stand in a corner, given a task that was distasteful, etc. before ever getting to the prospect of physical punishment. What the fuck? “Stand in a corner”? Are you fucking retarded? ---
**Author:** ![Battle\_Pope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Battle\_Pope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Battle_Pope)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/186 "2016-01-23T19:05:43Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > I’m sure Richard Verrall would say that he’s not endorsing or white-washing the Holocaust. He’d be wrong, though. Perhaps you are stupid enough to sincerely believe your own vile bullshit, but that doesn’t make it true. > > Even comparing you to Holocaust deniers is probably giving you too much credit. Holocaust deniers usually claim that the Nazis had no policy of exterminating Jews at all rather than acknowledging that this did happen but claiming that the Jews were happy in the death camps and would have agreed that they deserved to be killed. Now be fair, I’m sure \*\*Sage Rat’s \*\*deep knowledge of the human condition would allow him to guess that a Sonderkommando member would have, at some point, returned to his bunk and thought “all things considered, today was a pretty good day”. ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/187 "2016-01-23T19:07:19Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > What the fuck? “Stand in a corner”? Are you fucking retarded? He ventured to guess it so it must be true. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/188 "2016-01-23T19:33:29Z")
> [@Battle\_Pope](#): > > Now be fair, I’m sure \*\*Sage Rat’s \*\*deep knowledge of the human condition would allow him to guess that a Sonderkommando member would have, at some point, returned to his bunk and thought “all things considered, today was a pretty good day”. I’m sure it would. That’s what makes him even worse than the Holocaust deniers I’ve heard of; at least they don’t claim that millions of people were content to be exterminated by the Nazis. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/189 "2016-01-23T19:58:19Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > This is really problematic. You don’t seem to have any evidence for this, except your general sense of “how people work”. But your experience with how people work is limited to one far end of the bell curve–the tiniest little sliver of the most comfortable, most prosperous, least onerous and least painful time and place in human history. You can’t use your observations of the time and place you are in now to extrapolate how “people” are, or were. It’s a terribly skewed sample. > > The reason this is so offensive is that you are shrugging off the pain and suffering of billions (everyone everywhere that was horribly oppressed) by saying “since they were used to it, it wasn’t bad for them”. You are dismissing real pain and suffering and saying it didn’t count because you are sure, based on your own experience with human nature, that they managed just fine. At the very most, your own experience could let you hope that many people were relatively content. Even that, I think, is hopelessly rose-tinted, because we have lots of on-going first person accounts (diaries, journals) of people who felt every day a burden in all sorts of oppressive societies. In reality, the past is gone. We can’t know. It’s presumptious to think we can. That was an excellent post. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/190 "2016-01-23T20:11:42Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > 1- So what Southern Abolitionists did I miss? > > 2- Do you know anyone that walks 3 miles to the 7/11 to get a soda? > > 3- I do not accept your justification that because I was wrong about a claim (yet to be determined) that you “need” to be rude to me. That makes you a bad person, rude, and it’s uncalled for. > > 4- Of course, as you said this is the Pit, and the one advantage of posting here is that it reveals peoples true nature. On your google search? [Moncure Conway](https://renegadesouth.wordpress.com/2010/01/19/moncure-conway-southern-abolitionist/) [Angelina and Sarah Grimke](https://www.gilderlehrman.org/history-by-era/slavery-and-anti-slavery/essays/angelina-and-sarah-grimke-abolitionist-sisters) [Duncan Smith](http://www.texasescapes.com/WTBlock/Great-grandpa-wasnt-popular-in-the-South.htm) [Were there white people in the South who fought for abolition before the Civil War?](https://www.quora.com/Were-there-white-people-in-the-South-who-fought-for-abolition-before-the-Civil-War) :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/191 "2016-01-23T20:22:43Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > On your google search? > > [Moncure Conway](https://renegadesouth.wordpress.com/2010/01/19/moncure-conway-southern-abolitionist/) > > [Angelina and Sarah Grimke](https://www.gilderlehrman.org/history-by-era/slavery-and-anti-slavery/essays/angelina-and-sarah-grimke-abolitionist-sisters) > > [Duncan Smith](http://www.texasescapes.com/WTBlock/Great-grandpa-wasnt-popular-in-the-South.htm) > > [Were there white people in the South who fought for abolition before the Civil War?](https://www.quora.com/Were-there-white-people-in-the-South-who-fought-for-abolition-before-the-Civil-War) > > :dubious: I’m not really sure what your point is. I didn’t say say there couldn’t be. I said I had allways thought there were then when I went and looked for some I didn’t find any and that made me sad. It seems you are so intent on “proving me wrong” that you are not even paying attention to what I actually said or did not say. So which is it? Are you interested in sarcasm and self righteousness or actually having a discussion? ---
**Author:** ![Emiliana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f0a364/32.png) [@Emiliana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emiliana)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/192 "2016-01-23T20:43:23Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > I’m not really sure what your point is. I didn’t say say there couldn’t be. I said I had allways thought there were then when I went and looked for some I didn’t find any and that made me sad. It seems you are so intent on “proving me wrong” that you are not even paying attention to what I actually said or did not say. > > So which is it? Are you interested in sarcasm and self righteousness or actually having a discussion? No, you stated the non-existence of southern, white abolitionists as fact. It seems that it is your google search skills that are non-existent. What on earth did you use as search terms? I used white southern abolitionists and found any number of sources. What bothers people is your tendency to speak in authoritative terms about subjects you don’t know much about. There’s a great deal of expertise about slavery here–why not ask your questions here and sit back and learn? ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/193 "2016-01-23T20:51:20Z")
Robert’s declaration led me to google and uncover interesting stuff – some of it discussion of why there were so few abolitionists in the south, and some fascinating reading about the ones that did exist. Short answer is that there were white abolitionists in the antebellum South. Slightly longer answer is that southerners were so hostile (to the point of lynching) to people who were antislavery that those who did feel that way either moved north or knew to keep their opinions to themselves. I also saw a distinction made between antislavery and abolition, which I had never seen before and still don’t grasp. Apparently you could be anti-slavery but not an abolitionist? I think it was a way of mitigating the spite; “I may be antislavery but I’m not abolitionist,” which means “I don’t like it, but I’m not going to change the law or anything.” Further research is needed. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/194 "2016-01-23T21:12:17Z")
As i understand it, an abolitionist wanted the practice abolished immediately amd in full, while being against slavery meant you wanted it gone but gradual was good enough. I am open to correction. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/195 "2016-01-23T21:22:58Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > Even comparing you to Holocaust deniers is probably giving you too much credit. Holocaust deniers usually claim that the Nazis had no policy of exterminating Jews at all rather than acknowledging that this did happen but claiming that the Jews were happy in the death camps and would have agreed that they deserved to be killed. It’s a shame we don’t have much evidence for the period, but I think it’s pretty safe to conclude that most concentration camp guards were pretty decent people who only wanted their charges to behave. Probably there were cruel, barbaric ones, and it’s right to condemn them, but I think for the most part 99% were good, decent people. OK, there were punishments, but we have to remember that it was a vilolent age, and people were used to that kind of treatment. I’d venture to suggest that most Jews in the camps were pretty happy because that’s just human nature, they came home to their little huts and gardens and brought up their kids and sang songs. I’m sure it would never have crossed their minds to escape, at least for the vast majority. There are always people who do things for silly reasons, so maybe some of them did try to run away, but they were probably just hotheaded kids. And who’s to say that some of the escapees weren’t bad people either? The guards would have tried reason and gentle encouragement because that’s just human nature, but then they were just forced to harsher measures. But it was a harsh age, many people were punished in ways that we might frown on today, so we can’t really judge them by our standards. No, overall I think the Jews in Auschwitz were probably pretty content with their lot and wouldn’t have thought it unreasonable. After all, most people throughout history have adapted to harsh conditions, and it almost certainly wasn’t like the Hollywood version of the Holocaust where people were weeping and wailing day and night. ---
**Author:** ![CatastrophicFailure](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@CatastrophicFailure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CatastrophicFailure)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/196 "2016-01-23T21:26:34Z")
> [@tnetennba](#): > > I also saw a distinction made between antislavery and abolition, which I had never seen before and still don’t grasp. Apparently you could be anti-slavery but not an abolitionist? I think it was a way of mitigating the spite; “I may be antislavery but I’m not abolitionist,” which means “I don’t like it, but I’m not going to change the law or anything.” Further research is needed. [This write up about southern antislavery societies](http://civilwartalk.com/threads/southern-abolitionists-part-1-charles-osborn.101084/) states, “At this time, however, very few of these societies or their members would be considered abolitionists (i.e., advocates of immediate and unconditional emancipation). Instead, the vast majority of anti-slavery proponents at this time were colonizationists, advocating that slaves should only be emancipated as quickly as they could be put on a boat and shipped to another continent.” Granted, this is a post on a message board about civil war history, but it includes links to primary sources. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/197 "2016-01-23T21:34:09Z")
> [@Penfeather](#): > > It’s a shame we don’t have much evidence for the period, but I think it’s pretty safe to conclude that most concentration camp guards were pretty decent people who only wanted their charges to behave. Probably there were cruel, barbaric ones, and it’s right to condemn them, but I think for the most part 99% were good, decent people. OK, there were punishments, but we have to remember that it was a vilolent age, and people were used to that kind of treatment. Too subtle. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/198 "2016-01-23T21:55:36Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > As i understand it, an abolitionist wanted the practice abolished immediately amd in full, while being against slavery meant you wanted it gone but gradual was good enough. > > I am open to correction. I should have recalled this from college, but now I remember a discussion about it. It was considered radical and extremist to actually think enslaved people should be freed immediately with no compensation to their captors. I wonder what extremist, radical, loony opinions few people have now that will be “duh” common sense in 150 years. Of course in my own lifetime I’ve seen gay marriage go from column a to column b. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/199 "2016-01-23T22:02:58Z")
> [@Emiliana](#): > > No, you stated the non-existence of southern, white abolitionists as fact. It seems that it is your google search skills that are non-existent. What on earth did you use as search terms? I used white southern abolitionists and found any number of sources. No, actually, I said they were very rare [102](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19039312&postcount=102): > [@](#): > > But what about the sad fact that southern Abolitionists were very rare. ☹ > I’ve been able to find very little data on that. > The lack of data would support the “product of your environment” argument, wouldn’t it? Very rare, very little data I didn’t say none existed. I didn’t say they couldn’t or shouldn’t exist. > [@](#): > > What bothers people is your tendency to speak in authoritative terms about subjects you don’t know much about. There’s a great deal of expertise about slavery here–why not ask your questions here and sit back and learn? Yeah, I can see how that bothers people. But in - this - case I used a frowny face and specific words like “sad fact” and very rare and very little data. I think you/they are/were judging me by the way I usually act instead of what I actually said at that particular time. BTW - I am not saying the slave owners got/get a pass because of the “product of your environment”. There were plenty of slave owners who either set their slaves free while they were alive or in their will on their death. I am referring to the overall mood/attitude about slavery in the south. I find it very saddening and disheartening that there was not more vocal opposition. I normally do not accept “product of your environment” reasoning. But, seeing as how actual white abolitionists were so rare, the role of the social environment must have some affect upon the whole situation. I am interested in asking how we view that. I am not making excuses for anyone. Similarly, a person could of grown up under bad conditions of domestic abuse, neglect and violence. They could have PTSD and several issues stemming from that. They may wind up abusing and hurting their own children. Having PTSD and a bad childhood is not an excuse to harm your own children but it is a - part - of the equation. It is in this same mode that I ask, “Gee, I wonder why there was not more opposition to slavery, it makes me sad that there wasn’t.” ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/200 "2016-01-23T22:05:34Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Too subtle. It’s actually fucking weird trying to think yourself into that mindset. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843.md?page=11)