# Sage Rat on Slavery **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 22, 2016, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843 "2016-01-22T02:32:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/21 "2016-01-22T05:14:05Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > I could maybe buy into the idea that slave owners generally didn’t behave cruelly toward their slaves just for the sake of amusement. If you’re trying to get productivity out of slaves, then widespread casual cruelty is not a good strategy.(snip) Not wrong, but not the point. Slave-owners mostly did not treat their slaves as people at all. They might have sex with one, which is probably just a good example of compartmentalization. When children were the result of such an act, there is no evidence they were treated any differently from other slaves. Slave-owners wouldn’t necessarily break up families for shits and giggles, but if it seemed like a good idea they wouldn’t think twice. Slaves weren’t people, they were things (as far as the whites were concerned), objects to be manipulated for profit, and occasionally pleasure. So the issue wasn’t poverty, poor living conditions, or even beatings or rape. The issue was persons being owned by other persons, being chattel, having no rights of any kind, having their very personhood denied and being reduced to the status of a farm animal. I can’t seem to put into words how abhorrent this should be, even 150 years after it ended. It is even worse that after the official status of slave was abolished, those people and their descendants were (and often still are) treated as sub-human by so many in this country. I wish every one of us, not just apologists like Sage Rat, but every single one of us, could go back and inhabit the life of any slave for one month, and then come back and see what they think should be done about the way the descendants of slaves are treated today. eta: I was typing while Sage Rat’s post was put up. What GW did or didn’t do with his slaves is irrelevant. No slave owner was particularly better than any other so long as he bought and sold people as if they were oxen. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/22 "2016-01-22T05:19:42Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > Not wrong, but not the point. Slave-owners mostly did not treat their slaves as people at all. They might have sex with one, which is probably just a good example of compartmentalization. When children were the result of such an act, there is no evidence they were treated any differently from other slaves. Slave-owners wouldn’t necessarily break up families for shits and giggles, but if it seemed like a good idea they wouldn’t think twice. Slaves weren’t people, they were things (as far as the whites were concerned), objects to be manipulated for profit, and occasionally pleasure. > > So the issue wasn’t poverty, poor living conditions, or even beatings or rape. The issue was persons being owned by other persons, being chattel, having no rights of any kind, having their very personhood denied and being reduced to the status of a farm animal. > > I can’t seem to put into words how abhorrent this should be, even 150 years after it ended. It is even worse that after the official status of slave was abolished, those people and their descendants were (and often still are) treated as sub-human by so many in this country. > > I wish every one of us, not just apologists like Sage Rat, but every single one of us, could go back and inhabit the life of any slave for one month, and then come back and see what they think should be done about the way the descendants of slaves are treated today. > > eta: I was typing while Sage Rat’s post was put up. What GW did or didn’t do with his slaves is irrelevant. No slave owner was particularly better than any other so long as he bought and sold people as if they were oxen. plus Having to work 6 days a week from sun up to sundown. For 13 hours a day. Thats a 80 hour workweek (during the summer) for no pay!!! ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/23 "2016-01-22T05:20:32Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > I wish every one of us, not just apologists like Sage Rat, but every single one of us, could go back and inhabit the life of any slave for one month, and then come back and see what they think should be done about the way the descendants of slaves are treated today. True that. Well, it might take more than a month depending on what slave you were incarnated as… but, true. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/24 "2016-01-22T06:14:28Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Without knowing who, how frequently ran away from whom, for what reasons, it’s entirely possible that someone was fleeing out of fear, out of desperation, or for some inane reason. With the information we have, coming down on any one answer is shortsighted. Are you fucking thick, or what? They ran away because they were owned as property. They were human beings, and they were owned, kept, and treated as livestock. All arguments begin and end there, because all treatment that springs from keeping people as farm animals is illegitimate. It doesn’t matter if he gave them cake and ice cream three times a day, it would still be illegitimate because he owned people like things. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/25 "2016-01-22T06:29:46Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Over the past year or so, the Dope has gotten noticeably more racist. Just an observation, but yeah he’s a piece of shit. Yes. It’s the inevitable result of the rule that says it’s OK to be a racist, but not OK to call someone a racist. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/26 "2016-01-22T06:46:05Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > I am not saying that slaves were well treated or that they ran away for stupid reasons. Yes, yes you are. And you use wayyy too many words to say it. Just stop. I’m not going to bother parsing the rest of your ridiculous tripe. You might try a little research next time, before you pile on idiocy on top of idiocy. There is no equivalency between modern life and your idyllic fantasy of life as a slave in America. Your level of apologist bullshit is an inspiration to Holocaust Deniers everywhere. The only redeeming quality that I can find in you is that you bothered to show up for your Pitting. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/27 "2016-01-22T06:47:07Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > Yes. It’s the inevitable result of the rule that says it’s OK to be a racist, but not OK to call someone a racist. Seconded. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/28 "2016-01-22T06:53:47Z")
> [@ddsun](#): > > Seconded. thirded ---
**Author:** ![booneyvince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c4cdca/32.png) [@booneyvince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/booneyvince)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/29 "2016-01-22T08:33:37Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Thank you, **Penfeather**. That’s among the shittiest things I’ve seen on the Straight Dope. It completely took me aback. Was your fainting couch available? LOL ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/30 "2016-01-22T09:38:48Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Or, we don’t have information about Washington’s household to conclusively say whether he was arbitrarily punishing slaves (in which case, he deserves full scorn) or if he was punishing people who had committed horrible acts and deserved what (at the time) would have been considered reasonable punishment. You are fucking aware that there wasn’t due process for slaves, that those “horrible acts” included not wanting to be somebody’s property? Or learning to read and write? Or not doing as you were told? That’s what being a fucking slave means, you arse, it means that You. Are. Owned. You have no human agency, none whatsoever. Are you that fucking bereft of imagination or empathy that you think belonging to George Washington - or any other slaver, for that matter - was just a minor inconvenience? ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/31 "2016-01-22T11:47:16Z")
If only slves had left written and transcribed first person accounts! If inlu many of thise accounts has been substantiated by later scholarship! If only! Where this shit really gets racist is when people refuse to believe what actual slaves actually said about their situation. And while a handful of people who were mostly only slaves as children remembered it as all right, the vast majority of written accounts make it clear that the horror of slavery was the central fact of most slaves’ lives. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/32 "2016-01-22T11:48:23Z")
> [@booneyvince](#): > > Was your fainting couch available? LOL Really? In your vast experience of LHOD reactions to things, you’ve decided he’s overreacting to the pile of disgusting crap Sage Rat wrote? Do tell. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/33 "2016-01-22T12:03:21Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > if they don’t know you’ll follow through on your threat to do something terrible–why the fuck would they follow your orders? Why wouldn’t a baker stop baking for you and start baking for someone who will pay him?. Because nobody is going to pay them and the alternative to being the slave of a benevolent owner would have been to be the slave of a less benevolent owner (and even that wasn’t in fact an option, it’s not like they had any right to switch to another boss, be it as slave or as paid worker)? I guess they counted their lucky stars in such a situation. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/34 "2016-01-22T12:13:50Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Over the past year or so, the Dope has gotten noticeably more racist. Sorry, but everything he wrote could be applied as a similar gloss to slaves in Rome or Persia or Timbuktu or China. So in that regard alone, he’s not racist. Slavery elsewhere was just as nasty as in America. The rest of it… ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/35 "2016-01-22T12:27:01Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Over the past year or so, the Dope has gotten noticeably more racist. Just an observation, but yeah he’s a piece of shit. > [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > Yes. It’s the inevitable result of the rule that says it’s OK to be a racist, but not OK to call someone a racist. Exact. ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/36 "2016-01-22T12:47:53Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > That’s not at all what the conversation is about. Of course most slave owners were not pathological sadists. Nobody but nobody is suggesting that. > > But all slavers were brutal. The system doesn’t work without brutality. If you’re not willing to do something terrible to the people you’ve enslaved–if they don’t know you’ll follow through on your threat to do something terrible–why the fuck would they follow your orders? Why wouldn’t a baker stop baking for you and start baking for someone who will pay him? > > The instant it becomes clear you’re not willing to be brutal, that’s the instant when you’re no longer enslaving someone, because now they either leave your slaver ass (what most do), or on the off chance they stay with you, it’s now out of a choice rather than out of the fact that you’re enslaving them. > > Sadism isn’t an inherent part of slavery. Brutality is an absolutely essential part of it. You reminded me of Eddie Murphy’s famous [bit](http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkHKMPvNTZQ) about slavery: > [@Eddie Murphy](#): > > Brothers act like they couldn’t have been slaves back 200 years ago. It ain’t like the motherfuckers liked that shit. “I wish I was a slave, I would fuck somebody up! Shit, tell me to bale some motherfucking cotton! I would been on the street and shit, would’ve come up and say, ‘Ay, yo, nigger, bale this cotton!’ I would say, ‘Suck my dick, massa!’”… > The first dude who got off the boat said that shit. > “Bale that cotton!” > “Fuck you motherfucker!” > [crack of a whip] > The other motherfuckers said, “We’ll bale the shit. Just keep that fucking shit away from me.” ---
**Author:** ![Emiliana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f0a364/32.png) [@Emiliana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emiliana)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/37 "2016-01-22T12:52:30Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Really? > > In your vast experience of LHOD reactions to things, you’ve decided he’s overreacting to the pile of disgusting crap Sage Rat wrote? > > Do tell. Well, _somebody_ has considerable experience with LHOD. I imagine our brand new poster won’t be with us for long. Sage Rat’s style of argumentation is classic. He supposes, he conceives, he considers likely, he laments the non-existence of data, and he draws his own completely ludicrous conclusions, because one simply cannot know for sure but one can certainly infer, especially when one is a racist slimeball. And yes, he does sound like Slavery Smapti. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/38 "2016-01-22T13:01:27Z")
Slavery Smapti is quite apt. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/39 "2016-01-22T13:12:53Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > I personally find it unlikely that for a century, every slave holding household was - as Hollywood would seem to want us to believe - ritualistically torturing the people that they had bought, just for shits and giggles. Nobody is saying that, you racist imbecile. ---
**Author:** ![piepiepie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e47774/32.png) [@piepiepie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/piepiepie)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/40 "2016-01-22T14:23:45Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Slavery Smapti is quite apt. I wonder what his favorite number 1 song from the 1860s is. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843.md?page=3)