# Sage Rat on Slavery **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 22, 2016, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843 "2016-01-22T02:32:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/41 "2016-01-22T14:51:30Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > So the question is, is **George Washington** more likely to have whipped people and to have split up families just for shits and giggles, or that this man who was well-respected for his composure and fairness and who freed all of his slaves on his death bed, meted out punishments based on merit? I think maybe I have found the flaw in your logic: _it doesn’t fucking matter if he meted out punishments based on merit._ He didn’t have the right to mete out punishment to anyone. Legally, he did, of course. But morally, no. It doesn’t matter how evenhandedly he treated his slaves. The point is that it’s not okay to own people. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/42 "2016-01-22T15:02:36Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > So the question is, is **George Washington** more likely to have whipped people and to have split up families just for shits and giggles, or that this man who was well-respected for his composure and fairness and who freed all of his slaves on his death bed, meted out punishments based on merit? It’s far more likely that he was in the middle – sometimes punishing slaves for disobedience, sometimes for misbehavior, sometimes for running away, etc. And this “in the middle” is _incredibly brutal_, even by the standards of the time. Many folks like Benjamin Franklin recognized this brutality, and stood against it. That Washington supported the brutality, and took part in it, is a big mark against him. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/43 "2016-01-22T15:06:03Z")
I wonder if we can start a petition to have the Mods rename his account “Slavery Smapti”. Involuntary custom title? ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/44 "2016-01-22T15:49:17Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > But still, if you asked any slave on any random day how his day was, most often you’d probably get back a “Pretty good.” What a load of exculpatory bollocks. As if slaves didn’t know they were slaves. Here’s a [letter](http://www.lettersofnote.com/2012/01/to-my-old-master.html)([original here](http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7035/6790780585_466117fe88_o.jpg)) from an actual former slave (not a made up person in Sage Rat’s head) to his old master who has recently offered him a position. Jourdon Anderson seems to have a pretty clear idea of what being a slave meant for him and his family and how much better he is out of it. He also has a fine line in stiletto-sharp sarcasm: > [@](#): > > I have often felt uneasy about you. I thought the Yankees would have hung you long before this, for harboring Rebs they found at your house. I suppose they never heard about your going to Colonel Martin’s to kill the Union soldier that was left by his company in their stable. Although you shot at me twice before I left you, I did not want to hear of your being hurt, and am glad you are still living. It would do me good to go back to the dear old home again, and see Miss Mary and Miss Martha and Allen, Esther, Green, and Lee. Give my love to them all, and tell them I hope we will meet in the better world, if not in this. I would have gone back to see you all when I was working in the Nashville Hospital, but one of the neighbors told me that Henry intended to shoot me if he ever got a chance… > As to my freedom, which you say I can have, there is nothing to be gained on that score, as I got my free papers in 1864 from the Provost-Marshal-General of the Department of Nashville. Mandy says she would be afraid to go back without some proof that you were disposed to treat us justly and kindly; and we have concluded to test your sincerity by asking you to send us our wages for the time we served you. This will make us forget and forgive old scores, and rely on your justice and friendship in the future. I served you faithfully for thirty-two years, and Mandy twenty years. At twenty-five dollars a month for me, and two dollars a week for Mandy, our earnings would amount to **eleven thousand six hundred and eighty dollars**. Add to this the interest for the time our wages have been kept back, and deduct what you paid for our clothing, and three doctor’s visits to me, and pulling a tooth for Mandy, and the balance will show what we are in justice entitled to… > We trust the good Maker has opened your eyes to the wrongs which you and your fathers have done to me and my fathers, in making us toil for you for generations without recompense. Here I draw my wages every Saturday night; but in Tennessee there was never any pay-day for the negroes any more than for the horses and cows. Surely there will be a day of reckoning for those who defraud the laborer of his hire… > In answering this letter, please state if there would be any safety for my Milly and Jane, who are now grown up, and both good-looking girls. You know how it was with poor Matilda and Catherine. I would rather stay here and starve—and die, if it come to that—than have my girls brought to shame by the violence and wickedness of their young masters… > Say howdy to George Carter, and thank him for taking the pistol from you when you were shooting at me. > From your old servant, > > Jourdon Anderson. No, but sure - if you’d asked Mr Anderson on a random day how his day was, he would have said “Good”. Of course he would. If it was a day he wasn’t watching Matilda and Catherine being raped, for instance. Or being shot at by his “master”. Or had forgotten that he was being treated like cattle or cheated out of a lifetime’s earnings. “Oh sure,” he’d say. “Today was a good day”. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/45 "2016-01-22T16:39:42Z")
Thanks for posting that letter, **Stanislaus**. I’d heard of it before but never read it. It’s a thing of beauty. ---
**Author:** ![Not\_Carlson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc79bd/32.png) [@Not\_Carlson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Not_Carlson)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/46 "2016-01-22T16:49:27Z")
Wowzers! That certainly is a vile heap of effluence right there, to be sure. I couldn’t say just from reading what the OP quoted, though, that our wise rodent friend is necessarily a racist at heart. It may well be an unfortunate case of someone being needlessly cerebral while completely missing the point that they are talking about actual people being treated as property. It’s evil. Ain’t no reason to justify it. > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > But still, if you asked any slave on any random day how his day was, most often you’d probably get back a “Pretty good.” Whaaaaaa…??? > [@](#): > > So the question is, is **George Washington** more likely to have whipped people and to have split up families just for shits and giggles, or that this man who was well-respected for his composure and fairness and who freed all of his slaves on his death bed, meted out punishments based on merit? George Washington doesn’t have to have been a monster for his ownership and treatment of slaves to have been evil in and of itself. Stop playing Devil’s advocate. The devil is not a stand up kind of guy. ---
**Author:** ![Not\_Carlson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc79bd/32.png) [@Not\_Carlson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Not_Carlson)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/47 "2016-01-22T16:56:35Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Thanks for posting that letter, **Stanislaus**. I’d heard of it before but never read it. It’s a thing of beauty. Likewise, thanks for posting this, **Stanislaus**. I’d read it some time ago, but forgotten it. A valuable perspective that should bring some much needed clarity to any discussion about slavery. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/48 "2016-01-22T17:01:20Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Thanks for posting that letter, **Stanislaus**. I’d heard of it before but never read it. It’s a thing of beauty. It’s wonderful, isn’t it? Imagine going through that and still having the restraint to lay out such a massive “Go fuck yourself, pal” in such ostensibly polite language. I actually left out my favourite bit, which I think packs the greatest amount of triumphant vindication into the smallest number of words: > [@](#): > > Mandy,—the folks call her Mrs. Anderson ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/49 "2016-01-22T17:01:40Z")
Fascinating letter, **Stanislaus** , thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/50 "2016-01-22T17:02:37Z")
There’s some dispute over how much of the letter is Jordan’s “own work” and how much is interpolation by the transcriber. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/51 "2016-01-22T17:26:50Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > I’m drunk. Just ignore me. Is this the BBQ pit? OK, just fuck me then. _puff_ Was it good for you too? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/52 "2016-01-22T18:10:24Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > What a load of exculpatory bollocks. As if slaves didn’t know they were slaves. Here’s a [letter](http://www.lettersofnote.com/2012/01/to-my-old-master.html)([original here](http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7035/6790780585_466117fe88_o.jpg)) from an actual former slave Where’s that damn like button? ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/53 "2016-01-22T18:53:19Z")
[Harriet Jacobs’ narrative](http://docsouth.unc.edu/fpn/jacobs/jacobs.html) is also very interesting. Among other things, she lived in town and fought very hard to stay in town, because life was relatively better and slaves more protected, than in the country: > [@](#): > > Mrs. Flint, like many southern women, was totally deficient in energy. She had not strength to superintend her household affairs; but her nerves were so strong, that she could sit in her easy chair and see a woman whipped, till the blood trickled from every stroke of the lash. She was a member of the church; but partaking of the Lord’s supper did not seem to put her in a Christian frame of mind. If dinner was not served at the exact time on that particular Sunday, she would station herself in the kitchen, and wait till it was dished, and then spit in all the kettles and pans that had been used for cooking. She did this to prevent the cook and her children from eking out their meagre fare with the remains of the gravy and other scrapings. The slaves could get nothing to eat except what she chose to give them. Provisions were weighed out by the pound and ounce, three times a day. I can assure you she gave them no chance to eat wheat bread from her flour barrel. She knew how many biscuits a quart of flour would make, and exactly what size they ought to be. > > Dr. Flint was an epicure. The cook never sent a dinner to his table without fear and trembling; for if there happened to be a dish not to his liking, he would either order her to be whipped, or compel her to eat every mouthful of it in his presence. The poor, hungry creature might not have objected to eating it; but she did object to having her master cram it down her throat till she choked. > > They had a pet dog, that was a nuisance in the house. The cook was ordered to make some Indian mush for him. He refused to eat, and when his head was held over it, the froth flowed from his mouth into the basin. He died a few minutes after. When Dr. Flint came in, he said the mush had not been well cooked, and that was the reason the animal would not eat it. He sent for the cook, and compelled her to eat it. He thought that the woman’s stomach was stronger than the dog’s; but her sufferings afterwards proved that he was mistaken. This poor woman endured many cruelties from her master and mistress; sometimes she was locked up, away from her nursing baby, for a whole day and night. > > When I had been in the family a few weeks, one of the plantation slaves was brought to town, by order of his master. It was near night when he arrived, and Dr. Flint ordered him to be taken to the work house, and tied up to the joist, so that his feet would just escape the ground. In that situation he was to wait till the doctor had taken his tea. I shall never forget that night. Never before, in my life, had I heard hundreds of blows fall, in succession, on a human being. His piteous groans, and his “O, pray don’t, massa,” rang in my ear for months afterwards. There were many conjectures as to the cause of this terrible punishment. Some said master accused him of stealing corn; others said the slave had quarrelled with his wife, in presence of the overseer, and had accused his master of being the father of her child. They were both black, and the child was very fair. > > I went into the work house next morning, and saw the cowhide still wet with blood, and the boards all covered with gore. The poor man lived, and continued to quarrel with his wife. A few months afterwards, Dr. Flint handed them both over to a slave-trader. The guilty man put their value into his pocket, and had the satisfaction of knowing that they were out of sight and hearing. When the mother was delivered into the trader’s hands, she said, “You promised to treat me well.” To which he replied, “You have let your tongue run too far; damn you!” She had forgotten that it was a crime for a slave to tell who was the father of her child. The myth that slavery was not that bad, or that slaves were generally content, was widespread in the 1850s as well, and much of the work is aimed at specifically showing how that was not the case. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/54 "2016-01-22T19:14:17Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Hmmm… I’ll play devil’s advocate again for a moment. A slave might work for a not-totally-brutal master knowing that their lot might be much worse if they cut and ran elsewhere. So you’re right, the system doesn’t work without some promise of brutality somewhere, but it does not require that every slaver was necessarily brutal. I hesitate to even dip my toe in this thread, but . . . This is kind of the dilemma of systemic or institutionalized problems, right? Every slaver might not be brutal, but as long as he retains and exercises his power by operating in a system where other slavers are brutal, and where he has the option to become brutal at a moment’s notice, at the heart of it how different is he from those who are brutal? I’d say that there are fundamental and important differences . . . but also that in other fundamental ways they are exactly the same. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/55 "2016-01-22T19:42:22Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > I hesitate to even dip my toe in this thread, but . . . > This is kind of the dilemma of systemic or institutionalized problems, right? Every slaver might not be brutal, but as long as he retains and exercises his power by operating in a system where other slavers are brutal, and where he has the option to become brutal at a moment’s notice, at the heart of it how different is he from those who are brutal? > > I’d say that there are fundamental and important differences . . . but also that in other fundamental ways they are exactly the same. To add to this, there are two conceivable ways in which a master could avoid brutality. The first way is to let the threat of it hang in the air–never to use the lash because slaves are so convinced it will be used. I’m unaware of any records of any slaver who used this method; as I understand it, there were whippers-for-hire who would torture your slave for you if you were unwilling to do it yourself (I’m having trouble finding citation for this, so I may be misremembering). However, if there were a slaver who used this method–essentially terrifying slaves with the threat of torture so severely that they continued to work under the conditions of enslavement–that’s not exactly a sign of good slavery. And even then, the supposedly kind slaver doesn’t offer freedom to their slaves, which means that the slaves know if they decide to travel elsewhere or engage in other work, they’ll be captured and beaten and severely punished for attempting to leave. The cruelty remains outsourced. The second way it could work is to tell slaves, as others have outrageously implied in this thread, “Look, if you want to leave I won’t stop you, but everywhere else is so worse for you than here that you probably don’t want to leave. You’d rather stay here and work for me in exchange for what I provide.” There are three problems with this idea. First, if someone tells their slave that they won’t pursue, that’s an offer of freedom, and it’s highly questionable whether it’s even a slavery relationship any more. Second, it’s still exploiting a system of brutality in an unconscionable manner. Third, I’m unaware of any slaver who made such an arrangement with anyone they’d enslaved. The idea of the non-brutal slaver is, as far as I can tell, a myth. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/56 "2016-01-22T20:14:43Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I think maybe I have found the flaw in your logic: _it doesn’t fucking matter if he meted out punishments based on merit._ He didn’t have the right to mete out punishment to anyone. Legally, he did, of course. But morally, no. > It doesn’t matter how evenhandedly he treated his slaves. The point is that it’s not okay to own people. Yes. This (the bit I put in red) is precisely the point that the Slavery Wasn’t So Bad folks are desperate to bury under reams of irrelevancies, such as the fine examples we’ve seen Rat post—knuckleheaded stuff about whether it’s possible to discuss Marie Curie as a Woman Scientist if we’ve failed to discuss her as a Scientist (?) and comparisons of 30th century living to life in our own times (!) and just-plain-dopey assertions about how when life in a period contains a lot of brutality, then what’s so bad about slavery, in comparison to all those public-hangings and such??? “Obfuscation through the posting of masses of murky unconnected and inapt claims” seems to be the watchword of these types. (There is a good article at _Slate_ that collects some of the fallacious reasoning put about by the Wasn’t So Bad folks: [Slavery myths: Seven lies, half-truths, and irrelevancies people trot out about slavery—debunked.](http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/history/2015/09/slavery_myths_seven_lies_half_truths_and_irrelevancies_people_trot_out_about.html) The basic formulation employed by these sophists: A: American slavery can be classified as ‘bad’ only if the majority of slaveholders were brutal sadists; B: Manifestly, not all slaveholders were brutal sadists; C: Therefore, American slavery cannot be classified as ‘bad.’ It’s errant nonsense, of course. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/57 "2016-01-22T20:35:21Z")
Plus the tendency to speculate about what might have happened in the slave days like there is no historical data, no primary sources, no first-hand accounts to look to. These aren’t Cro-Magnons, we’re not poring over ancient artifacts wondering what this culture MIGHT have been liked if we imagine the slave-owners as genteel and logical creatures. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/58 "2016-01-22T20:36:44Z")
I’m going to say it again: brutality (or rape, or separating families, or hunger, or any other bad or good treatment) is not the point. Not the point. The point is that human beings had the status of things, roughly on a par with livestock. Yes, some owners were relatively less evil, and some were relatively more evil, but the institution itself was ineluctably evil and therefore the character of anyone who participated in it (except as a slave) is stained with that evil. All of this talk about how some slave owners might be less brutal strikes me as dancing around the basic, unavoidable evil of slavery. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/59 "2016-01-22T20:45:34Z")
I think both are important to acknowledge. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/60 "2016-01-22T20:49:58Z")
> [@Sage Rat](#): > > Without knowing who, how frequently ran away from whom, for what reasons, it’s entirely possible that someone was fleeing out of fear, out of desperation, or for some inane reason. With the information we have, coming down on any one answer is shortsighted. Sometimes when I see those “Lost Pet” signs, I wonder if Fido or Fluffy aren’t as much lost as escapees. Maybe if Fido or Fluffy could have left behind a little note, it would say “Please don’t come looking for me. I’m perfectly happy where I am–which is not with you! Smooches!” But the thing about American slaves is that–despite the conventional wisdom–they were actually intelligent human beings. Successfully running away required intention and presence of mind. No one leaves food and shelter for “inane” reasons unless they are obviously mentally impaired. Mentally impaired people don’t get very far. Every one who successfully escaped their enslavement lived to tell exactly why they escaped. I don’t think historians have turned up many reasons other than perfectly valid ones. It is possible to convince one’s self that an animal didn’t really mean to run away. But not a human. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843.md?page=4)