# Sage Rat on Slavery **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 22, 2016, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843 "2016-01-22T02:32:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/121 "2016-01-23T02:33:04Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > That’s why I’m rude to you. You googled Southern Abolitionists and didn’t find much. Instead of concluding that maybe you suck at Google, or that maybe something more than googling “Southern Abolitionists” would suffice to make an argument, you posted that it’s a “fact that southern Abolitionists were very rare.” > > That’s bullshit. It’s a shitty argument. It’s a shitty argument based on shitty research. AND YOU DON’T SEEM TO REALIZE THAT. > > You’re constantly making extremely poor arguments, without having any realization that you’re doing so. It’s fine to be ignorant about a topic; that’s a good time to shut up and listen, not a time to make claims. When you’re ignorant about a topic and you make claims about it anyway, that’s talking out your ass. And when you do it in the pit, I’ll be rude to you about it, because you shouldn’t do it, and I want the experience of doing it to be unpleasant for you, so maybe you’ll stop doing it. 1- So what Southern Abolitionists did I miss? 2- Do you know anyone that walks 3 miles to the 7/11 to get a soda? 3- I do not accept your justification that because I was wrong about a claim (yet to be determined) that you “need” to be rude to me. That makes you a bad person, rude, and it’s uncalled for. 4- Of course, as you said this is the Pit, and the one advantage of posting here is that it reveals peoples true nature. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/122 "2016-01-23T02:36:10Z")
You missed all the slaves. They are people, too. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/123 "2016-01-23T02:39:53Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > You missed all the slaves. They are people, too. For some reason, it’s extremely common for people to forget about the millions who lived in the South, opposed secession, opposed slavery, and frequently fought bodily against it, when discussing the facts of slavery. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/124 "2016-01-23T02:44:08Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > For some reason, it’s extremely common for people to forget about the millions who lived in the South, opposed secession, opposed slavery, and frequently fought bodily against it, when discussing the facts of slavery. Actually, quite the opposite. I’d be very glad to hear about prominent southern abolitionists. The fact that I can find no data is pretty depressing, as to what it says about humanity in general. And I was aware that slaves would of sided with the abolitionists. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/125 "2016-01-23T02:45:32Z")
> [@Penfeather](#): > > Read the fucking links that have been provided in this fucking thread. That’s your fucking research right there. Find the place in anything I wrote where I said anything other than that the conditions were horrible and that the treatment was shameful. You will not find me saying any such thing. I explicitly say and agree that the slaves lived in poor, squalid conditions and were punished in cruel ways. An account which describes a horrible situation is to be expected and does not run counter to anything I have said. A survey which agrees that this was not just an anecdotal, but in fact a majority, reality does not run counter to anything I have said since I agree that this is the case and have said that it was the case. I have not denied anything that is in any account of slavery, nor have I lauded the behavior of our ancestors. It was horrible and good riddance that it no longer exists. Your cites do not conflict with anything I have said. But, like I said, if you ask someone who lived through a war what the experience of it was like, they’re going to describe a horrible situation and explain that they were miserable every day. But if you had met that person, during the war, on any random day and asked them how _that day_ was, they would more often than not say, “Pretty good.” Pointing out that fact is not an endorsement of war. But it does serve to illustrate how it can be that war can be evil, yet the people who undertake the war are individually each good people (on average). ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/126 "2016-01-23T02:46:13Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Actually, quite the opposite. I’d be very glad to hear about prominent southern abolitionists. The fact that I can find no data is pretty depressing, as to what it says about humanity in general. > > And I was aware that slaves would of sided with the abolitionists. From my reading, life in the South was literally physically dangerous for white people who vocally opposed slavery. It’s not that surprising that they either stayed quiet or went North. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/127 "2016-01-23T02:48:09Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > From my reading, life in the South was literally physically dangerous for white people who vocally opposed slavery. It’s not that surprising that they either stayed quiet or went North. Thats what I’ve read too. So how then, is my claim that I could find no southern abolitionists, inaccurate? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/128 "2016-01-23T02:50:52Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > 1- So what Southern Abolitionists did I miss? Again, because you suck at reading: folks who were enslaved were generally, though not universally, opposed to slavery. These folks were REALLY FUCKING COMMON in the south, whatever your shitty Google skills might have told you. > [@](#): > > 2- Do you know anyone that walks 3 miles to the 7/11 to get a soda? No. So what? Is that supposed to be an excuse for your shitty lazy-ass argumentation? > [@](#): > > 3- I do not accept your justification that because I was wrong about a claim (yet to be determined) that you “need” to be rude to me. That makes you a bad person, rude, and it’s uncalled for. > > 4- Of course, as you said this is the Pit, and the one advantage of posting here is that it reveals peoples true nature. Since I never said I need to be rude to you, that’s cool that you don’t accept that justification. It’s a choice I make. And if that choice makes you think I’m a bad person, I’m fine with that. I think you’re intellectually lazy and far too sanguine about that, so I put very little store by your judgment. Yes, the Pit might Reveal Peoples’ True Nature using some sort of magic fucking spell. I prefer to think that the words we use in any context reveals who we are. The words you use reveal that you’re pretty fucking smug about your ignorance. and have no interest in shutting up when you ought to be listening instead. > [@](#): > > So how then, is my claim that I could find no southern abolitionists, inaccurate? That wasn’t your claim, Robert. Your claim is–I repeat, since you’ve apparently forgotten–that it’s a “sad fact that southern Abolitionists were very rare.” Please tell me you see the difference between the two claims. One is a claim about you. The other is an implicit claim that most enslaved black people did not oppose slavery. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/129 "2016-01-23T02:50:59Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > My point was, as said, that the information provided does not conclusively show that Washington was a monster. It’s funny you should say that, because you’ve provided us with more than enough information to conclude that _you’re_ a monster. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/130 "2016-01-23T02:52:54Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Thats what I’ve read too. > > So how then, is my claim that I could find no southern abolitionists, inaccurate? Because you ignored the obvious millions of Southern abolitionists who endured slavery. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/131 "2016-01-23T02:54:02Z")
> **[Robert Carter III](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Carter_III)** > > Robert "Councillor" Carter III (February 28, 1728 – March 10, 1804) was a lawyer and planter from the Northern Neck of Virginia, in what became the United States. For two decades he sat on the Colonial Virginia Governor's Council. After the American Revolutionary War, and influenced by his Baptist faith, Carter began what became the largest manumission and release of enslaved African Americans in North America in the 74 years prior to the American Civil War. By a deed of gift filed with Northumbe... Follow some of the links in that wiki to find other prominent (white) individuals in favor of abolition. . ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/132 "2016-01-23T02:56:51Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Again, because you suck at reading: folks who were enslaved were generally, though not universally, opposed to slavery. These folks were REALLY FUCKING COMMON in the south, whatever your shitty Google skills might have told you. > No. So what? Is that supposed to be an excuse for your shitty lazy-ass argumentation? > > Since I never said I need to be rude to you, that’s cool that you don’t accept that justification. It’s a choice I make. And if that choice makes you think I’m a bad person, I’m fine with that. I think you’re intellectually lazy and far too sanguine about that, so I put very little store by your judgment. > > Yes, the Pit might Reveal Peoples’ True Nature using some sort of magic fucking spell. I prefer to think that the words we use in any context reveals who we are. The words you use reveal that you’re pretty fucking smug about your ignorance. and have no interest in shutting up when you ought to be listening instead. > > That wasn’t your claim, Robert. Your claim is–I repeat, since you’ve apparently forgotten–that it’s a “sad fact that southern Abolitionists were very rare.” > > Please tell me you see the difference between the two claims. Ok, well, it seems as if you are the one who is ignornat. I can find no evidence of white people from the south who were abolitionists. You have yet to produce any. I was already aware that black people did not want to be enslaved. The topic at hand, at that point in the thread, was could we blame - white people - for their treatment of slaves. There were white people who did set their slaves free. Even while the they were alive. But, that was rare. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/133 "2016-01-23T02:58:42Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Because you ignored the obvious millions of Southern abolitionists who endured slavery. Except that I’m not. If it makes you “happy” to hear me state “no white southern abolitionists” fine, but I pretty much assumed we all knew slaves didn’t like being slaves. Man, you people, mean spirited for no reason at all… ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/134 "2016-01-23T02:59:38Z")
Why don’t you think black people who oppossed slavery cpinted as abolitionists? They only “sided” with them? Harriet Tubman wasn’t an abolitionist? Frederick Douglass? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/135 "2016-01-23T03:00:20Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > The other is an implicit claim that most enslaved black people did not oppose slavery. That is completely 100% NOT what I think. You should learn to look before you shoot. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/136 "2016-01-23T03:03:32Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Except that I’m not. > > If it makes you “happy” to hear me state “no white southern abolitionists” fine, but I pretty much assumed we all knew slaves didn’t like being slaves. If we all knew that, then it should have been clear to you what you were being criticized for. During discussions of slavery, I find that similar “assumptions”, which just so happen to entirely dismiss the desires and feelings of the millions of slaves, are distressingly common. The slaves were not passive victims of history – they were active participants in trying to make their lives better, including trying to escape, trying to help others escape, and _advocating for the abolition of slavery_. > [@](#): > > Man, you people, mean spirited for no reason at all… I don’t believe I’ve said anything “mean spirited”. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/137 "2016-01-23T03:08:53Z")
**Robert** , have you ever heard of the [Grimke sisters](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimk%C3%A9_sisters)? ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/138 "2016-01-23T03:09:42Z")
It’s a pain to trying to link on my phone but two in KY were cassius Marcellus clay and John g fee. There is some question how much of an abolitionist George mason was - and Lafayette, while not a southerner, was quite close to George Washington. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/139 "2016-01-23T03:15:57Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If we all knew that, then it should have been clear to you what you were being criticized for. During discussions of slavery, I find that similar “assumptions”, which just so happen to entirely dismiss the desires and feelings of the millions of slaves, are distressingly common. The slaves were not passive victims of history – they were active participants in trying to make their lives better, including trying to escape, trying to help others escape, and _advocating for the abolition of slavery_. That’s true. But also not the point. The point is/was to what degree do we condemn - white - southerners for not taking stronger steps to end slavery. Is a person a product of their times? Yes or no? To what degree are they responsible. Normally, I would say I don’t care about all that moral relativism bullshit. But the fact that that white southern abolitionists were very rare has to have - some - bearing on how we judge white people from that time/era and whether or not they were products of their environemnt. > [@](#): > > I don’t believe I’ve said anything “mean spirited”. You right, you haven’t but other people are and I’m a bit agitated at that. You are, however, kind of giving me a lecture on a stance that I don’t even hold. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/140 "2016-01-23T03:17:00Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > [Robert Carter III - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Carter_III) > > Follow some of the links in that wiki to find other prominent (white) individuals in favor of abolition. . > [@monstro](#): > > **Robert** , have you ever heard of the [Grimke sisters](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimk%C3%A9_sisters)? > [@raventhief](#): > > It’s a pain to trying to link on my phone but two in KY were cassius Marcellus clay and John g fee. There is some question how much of an abolitionist George mason was - and Lafayette, while not a southerner, was quite close to George Washington. Thank You I am reading about that now. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843.md?page=8)