# Sage Rat on Slavery **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 22, 2016, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843 "2016-01-22T02:32:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/141 "2016-01-23T03:17:05Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > That is completely 100% NOT what I think. > > You should learn to look before you shoot. Your inability to express yourself clearly is not my responsibility. Your immediate and implicit dismissal of black people as counting is your responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/142 "2016-01-23T03:20:19Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Your inability to express yourself clearly is not my responsibility. Your immediate and implicit dismissal of black people as counting is your responsibility. Except I’ve not done that. That is a creation in your own mind. I know you think I’m stupid. But it is a bit absurd that you would think I am so stupid that I wouldn’t realize black people/slaves were unhappy with slavery. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/143 "2016-01-23T03:20:52Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > You’d venture to guess? You’d **venture to fucking guess**?! Well, if that’s not a fine bit of cogent and well-researched argument, my name’s not Jiminy fucking Cricket! > > You’d venture to guess. > > You know how before I rated you at a 2 on the knowing what you’re talking about scale? Must’ve been Christmas or something, I give you a 2. What percentage of slaves would you say had scars? Doing some research on that question, we come to this book: > **[Freedom's Port](https://books.google.com/books?id=8s-XpyV9HjwC&pg=PA85&lpg=PA85&dq=what%2Bpercentage%2Bof%2Bslaves%2Bhad%2Bscars&source=bl&ots=YUcC6j7r_4&sig=YsdUbeHYK4Vlmxm93o-KfqKT9G8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj6_u2B_L7KAhUJzmMKHTlqCcEQ6AEINzAF#v=onepage&q=what%20percentage%20of%20slaves%20had%20scars&f=false)** > > Baltimore's African-American population--nearly 27,000 strong and more than 90 percent free in 1860--was the largest in the nation at that time. Christopher Phillips's Freedom's Port, the first book-length study of an urban black population in the... From that account 1/3rd percent of former slaves had some form of deformity, handicap, or scar useful for the purpose of identification. But on the counter, that it also means that **2/3rds of slaves had no identifiable scars** , after a lifetime of slavery. Of the 1/3rd percent, much of it seemed to be caused by a life of hard labor. And most of the identifying marks were minor. Do those numbers fit closer with a description where every slave is being flogged every day, just to keep the fear of the devil in them? Or does it better fit a description where specific slaves were more likely to be punished, and most were never or barely punished at all? ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/144 "2016-01-23T03:26:25Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Find the place in anything I wrote where I said anything other than that the conditions were horrible and that the treatment was shameful. You will not find me saying any such thing. I explicitly say and agree that the slaves lived in poor, squalid conditions and were punished in cruel ways. Sure. > [@](#): > > So if the slaves are mostly going to respond to negative feedback and you mostly don’t want to hurt people, let alone for arbitrary reasons, you’re going to give them a talking to before considering anything more than that. I’d venture to guess that even after a talking to, a lot of slaves were made to stand in a corner, given a task that was distasteful, etc. before ever getting to the prospect of physical punishment. You aren’t describing anything horrible, shameful, poor, squalid or cruel, you’re “venturing to guess” that slaves were “given negative feedback” like errant school children. It’s a hideously, impossibly rosy-tinted picture of a system which punished by whipping, branding, castrating, burning, hanging, and Christ knows what other tortures and brutalities. “Made to stand in the corner”, for fuck’s sake. Do you genuinely believe they even lived in the same house, to be able to stand in the corner? This your “being made to stand in the corner”, you fucking piece of ordure. And if you can read it and still smirk and writhe and twist and equivocate with your “venture to suggest”, you’re beyond fucking humanity: > [@](#): > > Seems like after I got bigger, I member’ more’n more niggers run away. They’s most allus cotched. Massa used to hire out his niggers for wage hands. One time he hired me and a nigger boy, Turner, to work for some ornery white trash name of Kidd. > > One day Turner goes off and don’t come back. Old man Kidd say I knowed bout it, and he tied my wrists together and stripped me. He hanged me by the wrists from a limb on a tree and spraddled my legs around the trunk and tied my feet together. Then he beat me. He beat me worser than I ever been beat before and I faints dead away. When I come to I’m in bed. I didn’t care so much iffen I died. > > I didn’t know bout the passin of time, but Miss Sara come to me. Some white folks done git word to her. Mr. Kidd tries to talk hisself out of it, but Miss Sara fotches me home when I’m well enough to move. She took me in a cart and my maw takes care of me. Massa looks me over good and says I’ll git well, but I’m ruint for breedin’ chillun. [Link. Fucking read it.](http://xroads.virginia.edu/~hyper/wpa/reynold1.html) ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/145 "2016-01-23T03:28:31Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > What percentage of slaves would you say had scars? Doing some research on that question, we come to this book: > > [Freedom's Port: The African American Community of Baltimore, 1790-1860 - Christopher Phillips - Google Books](https://books.google.com/books?id=8s-XpyV9HjwC&pg=PA85&lpg=PA85&dq=what+percentage+of+slaves+had+scars&source=bl&ots=YUcC6j7r_4&sig=YsdUbeHYK4Vlmxm93o-KfqKT9G8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj6_u2B_L7KAhUJzmMKHTlqCcEQ6AEINzAF#v=onepage&q=what%20percentage%20of%20slaves%20had%20scars&f=false) > > From that account 1/3rd percent of former slaves had some form of deformity, handicap, or scar useful for the purpose of identification. But on the counter, that it also means that **2/3rds of slaves had no identifiable scars** , after a lifetime of slavery. > > Of the 1/3rd percent, much of it seemed to be caused by a life of hard labor. And most of the identifying marks were minor. > > Do those numbers fit closer with a description where every slave is being flogged every day, just to keep the fear of the devil in them? Or does it better fit a description where specific slaves were more likely to be punished, and most were never or barely punished at all? That cite points out that the scars noted were mostly on skin not normally covered - and specifically mentions that some scared backs may have missed. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/146 "2016-01-23T03:36:02Z")
That cite also days that 42% of the men in that group were visibly scarred. The women displayed fewer scars. Know what doesn’t necessarily leave a visible scar? The owners could and did rape women that they owned. And living under the knowledge and threat of violence and rape - nothing monstrous or brutal about that. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/147 "2016-01-23T03:46:38Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Do those numbers fit closer with a description where every slave is being flogged every day, just to keep the fear of the devil in them? Or does it better fit a description where specific slaves were more likely to be punished, and most were never or barely punished at all? JESUS FUCKING CHRIST YOU FUCKING MORON! Nobody ever said that every slave is being flogged every day. NOBODY EVER SAID THAT! What the hell is wrong with you? ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/148 "2016-01-23T03:48:51Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > What percentage of slaves would you say had scars? Doing some research on that question, we come to this book: > > [Freedom's Port: The African American Community of Baltimore, 1790-1860 - Christopher Phillips - Google Books](https://books.google.com/books?id=8s-XpyV9HjwC&pg=PA85&lpg=PA85&dq=what+percentage+of+slaves+had+scars&source=bl&ots=YUcC6j7r_4&sig=YsdUbeHYK4Vlmxm93o-KfqKT9G8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj6_u2B_L7KAhUJzmMKHTlqCcEQ6AEINzAF#v=onepage&q=what%20percentage%20of%20slaves%20had%20scars&f=false) > > From that account 1/3rd percent of former slaves had some form of deformity, handicap, or scar useful for the purpose of identification. But on the counter, that it also means that **2/3rds of slaves had no identifiable scars** , after a lifetime of slavery. > > Of the 1/3rd percent, much of it seemed to be caused by a life of hard labor. And most of the identifying marks were minor. > > Do those numbers fit closer with a description where every slave is being flogged every day, just to keep the fear of the devil in them? Or does it better fit a description where specific slaves were more likely to be punished, and most were never or barely punished at all? Well, I’m convinced. That book has a magnificent amount of FOUR REVIEWS, so I think we should all take it as gospel. My God, when this thread started, I was more apt to side with whoever assumed this was more an academic, “Aw, surely they weren’t all bad. And just by the ratios, many, I bet at least a couple really didn’t mind staying.” bullshit navel gazing. But reading further along, you really are, honest to goodness, apologizing for slavery. And you’ve been on the boards for _how_ long? I just don’t see how you didn’t show your true colors before now. Because frankly, I agree with what I initially thought might’ve been some over-the-top hyperbole… this is some of the vilest shit I’ve seen posted here and that says a lot. The only thing I’m heartened by is that no one has come to your defense. Yet. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/149 "2016-01-23T03:50:20Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Except I’ve not done that. That is a creation in your own mind. > > I know you think I’m stupid. > > But it is a bit absurd that you would think I am so stupid that I wouldn’t realize black people/slaves were unhappy with slavery. I don’t think you’re as stupid as that–although, yes, I think you’re intellectually lazy, and I find that contemptible. Your words show that you dismiss the opinions of black Southerners as important–you didn’t think they counted when looking for Southern abolitionists. This is a pretty common sort of racism. If you responded by saying, “Gosh, you’re right, I shouldn’t dismiss millions of people so quickly,” that would be a sign that you’re not intellectually lazy. Instead, predictably, you doubled down and turned it into a thread about you. I’m done with that. You’re too contemptible to be worth bothering with until you engage in some serious self-reflection, realize exactly how lazy you are, and change it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/150 "2016-01-23T04:05:19Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > That’s true. But also not the point. > > The point is/was to what degree do we condemn - white - southerners for not taking stronger steps to end slavery. > > Is a person a product of their times? Yes or no? To what degree are they responsible. Normally, I would say I don’t care about all that moral relativism bullshit. > > But the fact that that white southern abolitionists were very rare has to have - some - bearing on how we judge white people from that time/era and whether or not they were products of their environemnt. People are partially a product of their times and environment. But even that doesn’t excuse slave owners - many people at the same time opposed slavery, most notably for this discussion, people that slave owners interacted with on a daily and often intimate basis. The system and society was built and operated at all levels with the most important goal of maintaining and strengthening the institution of slavery. Through fear and violence, it strove to silence or drive away any who would speak against it. We should alternately praise and mourn those who spoke against it anyway, and we should strongly criticize those who refused to listen. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/151 "2016-01-23T04:06:46Z")
After emancipation, Colonel P.H. Anderson of Big Spring, Tennessee, wrote to his former slave, Jourdon Anderson, and requested that he come back to work on his farm. [Jourdon’s response is an interesting read.](http://www.lettersofnote.com/2012/01/to-my-old-master.html) Anderson was apparently a better-than-average master, but Jourdon still didn’t want to return. Here are the last few paragraphs of Jourdon’s letter: > [@](#): > > … We trust the good Maker has opened your eyes to the wrongs which you and your fathers have done to me and my fathers, in making us toil for you for generations without recompense. Here I draw my wages every Saturday night; but in Tennessee there was never any pay-day for the negroes any more than for the horses and cows. Surely there will be a day of reckoning for those who defraud the laborer of his hire. > > In answering this letter, please state if there would be any safety for my Milly and Jane, who are now grown up, and both good-looking girls. You know how it was with poor Matilda and Catherine. I would rather stay here and starve—and die, if it come to that—than have my girls brought to shame by the violence and wickedness of their young masters. You will also please state if there has been any schools opened for the colored children in your neighborhood. The great desire of my life now is to give my children an education, and have them form virtuous habits. > > Say howdy to George Carter, and thank him for taking the pistol from you when you were shooting at me. > > From your old servant, > > Jourdon Anderson. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/152 "2016-01-23T04:08:31Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > I can find no evidence of white people from the south who were abolitionists. Maybe there were some who were abolitionist in sentiment, but, if so, they had to be careful to keep it to themselves; see post #115. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/153 "2016-01-23T04:09:31Z")
> [@faithfool](#): > > But reading further along, you really are, honest to goodness, apologizing for slavery. And you’ve been on the boards for _how_ long? I just don’t see how you didn’t show your true colors before now. Because frankly, I agree with what I initially thought might’ve been some over-the-top hyperbole… this is some of the vilest shit I’ve seen posted here and that says a lot. The only thing I’m heartened by is that no one has come to your defense. Yet. Apologising for it? He’s practically fucking advocating it. I have honestly not read anything quite so vile on these boards before. I suppose you can make an argument that it’s better to have the racists in the room where you can keep an eye on them, but by Christ they don’t half leave a stench. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/154 "2016-01-23T04:12:15Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I don’t think you’re as stupid as that–although, yes, I think you’re intellectually lazy, and I find that contemptible. Your words show that you dismiss the opinions of black Southerners as important–you didn’t think they counted when looking for Southern abolitionists. This is a pretty common sort of racism. If you responded by saying, “Gosh, you’re right, I shouldn’t dismiss millions of people so quickly,” that would be a sign that you’re not intellectually lazy. > > Instead, predictably, you doubled down and turned it into a thread about you. That would all be fine and good if it were actually true. Sadly for you, it is not. At the time I joined the conversation, George Washington and his cohorts were the subject at hand: > [@](#): > > **Miller** > Where did you get the idea that he was judging Washington by contemporary standards? He’s explicitly saying he judging him by 18th century standards. > [@](#): > > **LHOD** > To be fair, I’m saying that I’m willing to judge people by (modified, see above) modern standards–but that even if I were limiting the judgement to 18th century standards, Washington was still a dick. > > [101](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19039305&postcount=101) That, to most people, would appear to be a conversation about people like Washington a and Jefferson and not about people like Harriet Tubman or Fredrick Douglass or Nat turner. It seems obvious you were talking about white southerners. > [@](#): > > I’m done with that. You’re too contemptible to be worth bothering with until you engage in some serious self-reflection, realize exactly how lazy you are, and change it. You can talk about me being ignornat all you want but the truth is you rush to judgement and you are rude and hostile for no reason. I don’t know why you have such a bad attitude, why you are so hostile for no good reason at all. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/155 "2016-01-23T04:18:51Z")
Does it seem weird to anybody but me that there is still so much – or any – controversy over slavery in 2016? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/156 "2016-01-23T04:20:08Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Does it seem weird to anybody but me that there is still so much – or any – controversy over slavery in 2016? Yeah, it does seem odd. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/157 "2016-01-23T04:32:04Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Does it seem weird to anybody but me that there is still so much – or any – controversy over slavery in 2016? It’s like there’s an internet connection to 1916. Or 1816. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/158 "2016-01-23T04:37:34Z")
Ask the Virginia Plantation Owner About the Noble and Divinely Ordained Institution of Slavery. ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/159 "2016-01-23T04:44:18Z")
Sooo, this whole thing pretty much revolves around two things: 1. Sage Rat thinks the Hollywood portrayal of slavery is that every single slave owning household engaged in torture for fun and every single slave cried themselves to sleep every single night. 2. He _imagines_ that slaves _probably_ went to sleep at night after an honest days work thinking that life was “pretty good.” Ya know, often before I post, I stop and think “Will this reflect well on me or is this the stupidest thing ever said by a human being?” I _imagine_ that Sage Rat is _probably_ wishing he had such a system in place right about now. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843/160 "2016-01-23T04:51:59Z")
Slavery; or A Boon To Negroes [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sage-rat-on-slavery/743843.md?page=9)