# Sail-driven Ships: Could they be Revived? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 21, 2008, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sail-driven-ships-could-they-be-revived/450133 "2008-05-21T18:20:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2008, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sail-driven-ships-could-they-be-revived/450133/21 "2008-05-22T18:37:35Z")
[QUOTE=Zsofia] One of the problems with traditional sailing ships is how much sail you have compared to how much ship. On my schooner there was miles of sail and masts and rigging, and I couldn’t stand up in my cabin, which was mostly under a deck. To get enough cargo space to make much of a difference, you’d have to have a LOT of sail up there. [/QUOTE] Well the reason I gave the example of ‘The Maltese Falcon’, is that it’s computer driven system mitigates a lot of the problems you described. Certainly it requires a lot of sail, but if I am not mistaken that sail is contained completely in the masts. The ship can be sailed by a single crewman as well, so that sort of design seems to have a lot of potential. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2008, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sail-driven-ships-could-they-be-revived/450133/22 "2008-05-22T18:57:11Z")
[QUOTE=Spectre of Pithecanthropus] On the other hand if you want to go downwind I suppose that’s when you would have to use the motor. Unless the ship can be rigged for both traditional sail and turbine power. [/QUOTE] You mean like a sailing ship on a treadmill? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2008, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sail-driven-ships-could-they-be-revived/450133/23 "2008-05-22T18:57:59Z")
[QUOTE=Slithy Tove] You mean like a sailing ship on a treadmill? [/QUOTE] Go to your room. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2008, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sail-driven-ships-could-they-be-revived/450133/24 "2008-05-22T20:05:22Z")
[QUOTE=Simplicio] Jacques Cousteau’s [Turbosail](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbosail) supposedly made his ship 30% more fuel efficent, but didn’t catch on. Still, perhaps with increased fuel prices and use of oceanic shipping, someone will give the technology a second look. [/QUOTE] You beat me to it. I didn’t realize how it worked until today. I thought it funneled air into vertical turbines but it’s actually a powered wing. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2008, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sail-driven-ships-could-they-be-revived/450133/25 "2008-05-22T20:10:23Z")
[QUOTE=Zsofia] One of the problems with traditional sailing ships is how much sail you have compared to how much ship. On my schooner there was miles of sail and masts and rigging, and I couldn’t stand up in my cabin, which was mostly under a deck. To get enough cargo space to make much of a difference, you’d have to have a LOT of sail up there. [/QUOTE] We had a pretty good sized hold on my ship ([Cite](http://www.muppetlabs.com/~eric/picton_castle_1_34.jpg)). That’s where we kept all our food, but there was plenty of room left. If the hatch was bigger and you had a crane, you could probably stack a few cars down there. It depends on how fast you want to go, and probably a million other things, too. I think one of the benefits of schooners is they can take a better angle into the wind when tacking. If you’re willing to go a few hundred miles out of your way to catch the trade winds, a square rigger seems to work pretty well. (With no rigging to deal with, I’d be very curious what the operating envelope of that _Maltese Falcon_ is.) There’s hull design to think of, too. I’m sure modern ships bob around a bit, but for the most part they seem to ride pretty level. How much would we have to adapt our current cargo handling for a ship that spends prolonged time heeled over in the wind? If someone who knew what he was doing really put the effort into designing something like this, even if it was just an exercise, I’d love to see what they come up with. I couldn’t resist using that for a cite. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2008, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sail-driven-ships-could-they-be-revived/450133/26 "2008-05-22T21:27:48Z")
[QUOTE=Robot Arm] We had a pretty good sized hold on my ship ([Cite](http://www.muppetlabs.com/~eric/picton_castle_1_34.jpg)). That’s where we kept all our food, but there was plenty of room left. If the hatch was bigger and you had a crane, you could probably stack a few cars down there. [/QUOTE] Yea, but its nothing compared to a modern container ship. To be commercially successful, I think we’d need to find a technology that scales up to power (or at least, partially power) something of that size. > [@](#): > > You beat me to it. I didn’t realize how it [Cousteau’s turbosail] worked until today. I thought it funneled air into vertical turbines but it’s actually a powered wing. Plus it looks cool! ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2008, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sail-driven-ships-could-they-be-revived/450133/27 "2008-05-22T21:36:30Z")
[QUOTE=Simplicio] Yea, but its nothing compared to a modern container ship. To be commercially successful, I think we’d need to find a technology that scales up to power (or at least, partially power) something of that size. [/QUOTE] That depends. The way we ship will change as oil becomes more expensive as it contributes to cost all the way through the process, from the manufacture of polymer components to the shipping trucks to the support vehicles in the factories. It is possible that at a certain point it may be cheaper to operate three or four sailing ships than a big super-tanker. Also, as the economy balances, the price imbalance that contributes to world trade will diminish trade. Manufacturing will likely revive in the US when it is no longer cheaper to have it done in China. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2008, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sail-driven-ships-could-they-be-revived/450133/28 "2008-05-22T21:46:55Z")
[QUOTE=Robot Arm] We had a pretty good sized hold on my ship ([Cite](http://www.muppetlabs.com/~eric/picton_castle_1_34.jpg)). That’s where we kept all our food, but there was plenty of room left. If the hatch was bigger and you had a crane, you could probably stack a few cars down there. It depends on how fast you want to go, and probably a million other things, too. I think one of the benefits of schooners is they can take a better angle into the wind when tacking. If you’re willing to go a few hundred miles out of your way to catch the trade winds, a square rigger seems to work pretty well. (With no rigging to deal with, I’d be very curious what the operating envelope of that _Maltese Falcon_ is.) There’s hull design to think of, too. I’m sure modern ships bob around a bit, but for the most part they seem to ride pretty level. How much would we have to adapt our current cargo handling for a ship that spends prolonged time heeled over in the wind? If someone who knew what he was doing really put the effort into designing something like this, even if it was just an exercise, I’d love to see what they come up with. I couldn’t resist using that for a cite. [/QUOTE] Remember how they had to destroy all those cars that spent how many weeks in that ship that almost sank and had a bad list? And they didn’t know if it would have affected the cars, so they had to destroy them rather than risk the fact that they had a shipload of lemons on their hands? ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2008, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sail-driven-ships-could-they-be-revived/450133/29 "2008-05-22T22:03:48Z")
[QUOTE=Zsofia] Remember how they had to destroy all those cars that spent how many weeks in that ship that almost sank and had a bad list? And they didn’t know if it would have affected the cars, so they had to destroy them rather than risk the fact that they had a shipload of lemons on their hands? [/QUOTE] I thought that was due more to the cars having been exposed to actual water up to a certain height rather than just from being tipped. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2008, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sail-driven-ships-could-they-be-revived/450133/30 "2008-05-22T22:03:51Z")
I think that the turbosail is just about as far as it’ll likely go. Sailing major vessels is no mean undertaking. Read any old Age of Sail books, and you get an idea of just how difficult it was, and how dependent the sailors were on wind and tide to get anywhere. They frequently got becalmed, and 14 knots was a CRAZY rate of speed, while today’s container ships tend to sail between 9 and 25 knots, with the larger ones tending toward the faster speeds. That’s sailing, not maximum speed. A sailing ship generally sailed at 5-10 knots generally, which would probably double most voyages, assuming all else is equal, which it assuredly wouldn’t be. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2008, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sail-driven-ships-could-they-be-revived/450133/31 "2008-05-22T23:06:11Z")
[QUOTE=Merijeek] I thought that was due more to the cars having been exposed to actual water up to a certain height rather than just from being tipped. -Joe [/QUOTE] I’m looking for a cite, but I know they had to destroy so many cars that they had to study the best way to do it, and I know I read that it was because there was no way to know what the effects of being tipped like that were. Found it! From the Wall Street Journal: “The mishap created a dilemma: What to do with the cars? They had remained safely strapped down throughout the ordeal – but no one knew for sure what damage, if any, might be caused by dangling cars at such a steep angle for so long. Might corrosive fluids seep into chambers where they don’t belong? Was the Cougar Ace now full of lemons?” Here’s the [story](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120942873506551291.html?mod=hpp_us_inside_today#) , which is really more about figuring out how to destroy the cars. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2008, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sail-driven-ships-could-they-be-revived/450133/32 "2008-05-23T00:35:00Z")
[QUOTE=Zsofia] I’m looking for a cite, but I know they had to destroy so many cars that they had to study the best way to do it, and I know I read that it was because there was no way to know what the effects of being tipped like that were. Found it! From the Wall Street Journal: “The mishap created a dilemma: What to do with the cars? They had remained safely strapped down throughout the ordeal – but no one knew for sure what damage, if any, might be caused by dangling cars at such a steep angle for so long. Might corrosive fluids seep into chambers where they don’t belong? Was the Cougar Ace now full of lemons?” Here’s the [story](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120942873506551291.html?mod=hpp_us_inside_today#) , which is really more about figuring out how to destroy the cars. [/QUOTE] I don’t understand why they don’t just sell them as used cars without a warrantee. People would jump at the chance to get a cheaper new car that might be water damaged. ---
**Author:** ![puppygod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@puppygod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puppygod)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2008, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sail-driven-ships-could-they-be-revived/450133/33 "2008-05-23T06:33:51Z")
What about [rotor ships](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotor_ship)? With modern materials, computer design and control we could make them much more effective than they were 80 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2008, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sail-driven-ships-could-they-be-revived/450133/34 "2008-05-23T08:30:00Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] That and if you are heading into the wind, the turbine is creating resistance against which the forward motion of the vessel must move negating the power gained from the turbine. [/QUOTE] I think it is possible to design a wind-powered vehicle that could drive directly into the wind solely under the wind power - or at least, I can see how to do it with a land-based vehicle - the drive just needs to be geared down so that it crawls upwind. With a vessel on water, it might be a lot more difficult, because you don’t have the advantage of traction - so the drive is not only less efficient, but the vehicle itself can slip bacwards under wind pressure, but the boat at the bottom of [this](http://www.multihullcentre.co.uk/mhcnews.htm) page can supposedly do it. A turbine is effectively moving at 90 degrees to the direction of the wind, so there’s no violation of physics or anything. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2008, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sail-driven-ships-could-they-be-revived/450133/35 "2008-05-23T11:18:49Z")
[QUOTE=Cisco] And how often? [/QUOTE] That’s the drawback of course - it tends to be a one-shot proposition. I don’t think it’s even been tried for, oh, forty-eight years or so. ---
**Author:** ![Santo\_Rugger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Santo\_Rugger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Santo_Rugger)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2008, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sail-driven-ships-could-they-be-revived/450133/36 "2008-05-23T17:19:55Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] I don’t understand why they don’t just sell them as used cars without a warrantee. People would jump at the chance to get a cheaper new car that might be water damaged. [/QUOTE] Lots of people wanted to buy the cars, but then when they shit out, the people aren’t going to think, “Oh, damn, my car must have been water damaged.” They’re going to think, “Damn, Mazda makes a shitty product.” It was cheaper for Mazda to make an insurance claim (and the insurance company mandated that they were destroyed) than for them to have thousands of people with shitty Mazdas. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sail-driven-ships-could-they-be-revived/450133.md?page=1)