# Saint Paul Never Quotes The Gospels? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 5, 2003, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saint-paul-never-quotes-the-gospels/211600 "2003-11-05T19:23:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2003, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saint-paul-never-quotes-the-gospels/211600/21 "2003-11-06T17:01:43Z")
> [@](#): > > these discontinuities and blind spots call into question the notion that the entire NT was written by the same God. Not really. While there are a number of people who believe that scripture is “written” by God whispering in the ears of the people who wrote the books, that is hardly a prevalent view, even among people who hold more nearly literalist positions regarding scripture. Note that the \*purpose]/i] of the letters are different than the _purpose_ of the gospels. Paul clearly never met Jesus when he was preaching, so he is not going to rely on quotations that he recalls. The idea that everyone in the Christian community would have some single lock-step memories of Jesus is silly. Take a look at the posts on these boards when people recall their own experiences with the Vietnam War or the Reagan Years or the WTC/Pentagon attack. Even people who share the same basic outlooks toward those events are going to emphasize certain memories over other memories. Finding six or ten authors who each portray (or emphasize) different events is what one should _expect_ when reviewing the writings of the New Testament. Such discrepancies clearly do _not_ argue in _favor_ of Jesus being God or the Messiah or anything else, but they hardly argue against such beliefs unless one holds the “God guiding the hand of the authors” viewpoint–a viewpoint that is actually pretty rare. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saint-paul-never-quotes-the-gospels/211600/23 "2013-05-16T09:58:35Z")
> [@NoClueBoy](#): > > \<\\> > > Explain, please. Not sure if Tnd addressed this, but here’s the 2c summary: Hebrews has been attributed to Paul but it is beyond highly unlikely that Paul wrote it. You don’t need some grand biblical scholar to figure that out. Go read any defnitively Pauline epistle and then read Hebrews. Two totally different writing styles. (In my humble opinion, the guy who wrote Hebrews can barely cobble together a coherent thought.) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saint-paul-never-quotes-the-gospels/211600/25 "2013-05-16T10:32:06Z")
Thread revived by spammer, (now deleted). ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saint-paul-never-quotes-the-gospels/211600/26 "2013-05-16T14:21:50Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Thread revived by spammer, (now deleted). [insert your own Zombie Jesus joke here] ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saint-paul-never-quotes-the-gospels/211600/27 "2013-05-16T14:24:42Z")
Why would Paul have quoted from a book about Jesus anyway? He personally met several of the original 12 Disciples – if he wanted to know what Jesus said about X or did on occasion Y, he could simply have asked them. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saint-paul-never-quotes-the-gospels/211600/28 "2013-05-16T14:26:34Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > Your answer may be found in the fourth of a five part mailbag answer, in my opinion the best mailbag article(s) ever written. > > [http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mbible4.html](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mbible4.html) > > This conclusion was made by the writers of the staff report from the work: _The Historical Figure of Jesus_, by E.P. Sanders, Penguin Books, 1993 Oh, Paul the Apostle Possessed an Epistle So truly colossal It made the girls whistle! – Handelsman ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saint-paul-never-quotes-the-gospels/211600/29 "2013-05-16T14:31:52Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [insert your own Zombie Jesus joke here] “Will the spammer come back in three days?” ---
**Author:** ![Habakkuk3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9a140/32.png) [@Habakkuk3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habakkuk3)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saint-paul-never-quotes-the-gospels/211600/30 "2013-05-16T19:40:35Z")
Homebrew and Tommndebb have related the dates of these books as near as I can tell as to when current biblical scholarship has placed them. Paul’s letters were well before Gospels in their final form. You can still buy old King James Bibles which preface HEBREWS with “Paul’s Epistle to the Hebrews” but no modern Bible scholars believe now that Paul wrote Hebrews - no one knows who wrote Hebrews. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saint-paul-never-quotes-the-gospels/211600/31 "2013-05-16T22:03:26Z")
> [@Habakkuk3](#): > > no one knows who wrote Hebrews. Manischewitz salesmen? ---
**Author:** ![Habakkuk3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9a140/32.png) [@Habakkuk3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habakkuk3)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2013, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saint-paul-never-quotes-the-gospels/211600/32 "2013-05-17T01:53:55Z")
“Manischewitz salesmen?” Yes. Manischewitz wholesale since as long as StraightDope has been fighting ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Habakkuk3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9a140/32.png) [@Habakkuk3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habakkuk3)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2013, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saint-paul-never-quotes-the-gospels/211600/33 "2013-05-17T01:55:44Z")
Heh. But this has not held the front-running position among Bible scholars - as far as I know “Hebrews” is considered anonymous… ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2013, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saint-paul-never-quotes-the-gospels/211600/34 "2013-05-17T12:27:54Z")
> [@NoClueBoy](#): > > He _likes_ me ! 😃 > Granted, it’s open to interpretation, but notice Hebrews 5: 7,8 > > Also, Phillipians 2: 5-8 > > Though it proves nothing, Paul does seem to be implying knowledge of Jesus Christ’s attitudes and actions as a human. BEFORE the crucifixtion. > > And here is a little tidbit on his birth (though it does not say _virgin_ birth (Galations 4:4): > > Was Paul making all this up? Or, did he gain knowledge of it (either from the Apostles or from some other source)? > > Yes, I know it’s _extremely_ tenuous, but you can’t say that Paul says nothing about Jesus on Earth as a man. (which you didn’t exactly say, but some may take it as though you did…) > > I’ll leave my earlier Hebrews point, because I don’t want to quote an entire book, and besides, it mostly deals with the doctrine (and not the life) of Christ, as **DtG** says. In John 10, Jesus seems to think of the 81st(RCV) or 82d Psalm(KJV) as his thinking of being God, or the son of God. He uses the psalmist who states," I said you are gods, and sons of the most high)"that could mean just Jewish men were gods or all people. If one looks back into history the word God didn’t mean as we do today, it seems more like a person of power, and good standing. In early history it seems one could claim the title god, for themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Habakkuk3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9a140/32.png) [@Habakkuk3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habakkuk3)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2013, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saint-paul-never-quotes-the-gospels/211600/35 "2013-05-17T14:21:46Z")
Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High. Psa 82:7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. (It is 81:6-7 in Septuagint rendering) Hebrew word for God is elohim here Jhn 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? Jhn 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Jhn 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? Greek word for God here is theos ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2013, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saint-paul-never-quotes-the-gospels/211600/36 "2013-05-18T04:12:08Z")
> [@Habakkuk3](#): > > Homebrew and Tommndebb have related the dates of these books as near as I can tell as to when current biblical scholarship has placed them. > > Paul’s letters were well before Gospels in their final form. > > You can still buy old King James Bibles which preface HEBREWS with “Paul’s Epistle to the Hebrews” but no modern Bible scholars believe now that Paul wrote Hebrews - no one knows who wrote Hebrews. There’s a pretty good argument that the author of Luke-Acts did. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2013, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saint-paul-never-quotes-the-gospels/211600/37 "2013-05-18T14:19:55Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > There’s a pretty good argument that the author of Luke-Acts did. Never heard that one. Can you give the argument or a link? ---
**Author:** ![Habakkuk3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9a140/32.png) [@Habakkuk3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habakkuk3)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2013, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saint-paul-never-quotes-the-gospels/211600/38 "2013-05-18T14:42:45Z")
I never heard either that Luke (or “the author of Luke-Acts”) wrote Hebrews - but everyone else has been posited as an author of it, so why not? This brings me to a point in the OP: “Paul (author of over half of the NT)” If you are talking NUMBER OF DIFFERENT BOOKS; maybe that is so, but sheer VOLUME OF TEXT might have to go to the author of Luke-Acts. IOW, all of Paul’s letters combined do not come near half the NT in sheer volume of texts. he just has more individual books than anyone else. Guesses on author of Hebrews have included Apollos, Silas, and Priscilla of Corinth - if THAT was true it would be only female author in NT. Luke, or “the author of Luke-Acts” - is generally believed to be a Gentile Greek physician - a weird candidate for author of Hebrews, but nobody knows. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saint-paul-never-quotes-the-gospels/211600/39 "2013-05-20T12:10:24Z")
> [@Habakkuk3](#): > > Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High. > > Psa 82:7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. > > (It is 81:6-7 in Septuagint rendering) > > Hebrew word for God is elohim here > > Jhn 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? > > Jhn 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; > > Jhn 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? > > Greek word for God here is theos ``` John 10 34-Is it not written in your law, I said you are gods, if he called them gods unto whom the word of God came, ;and scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the father has sanctified, and sent into the world, thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the son of god? If he were sent it would mean though he and the Father were one, could well mean that he considered all men the sons of God and gods, to me it is like the Ocean is made of water or H2O, the whole being greater than the part. ``` ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saint-paul-never-quotes-the-gospels/211600/40 "2013-05-21T21:19:01Z")
Man, I guess this is one debate that can be put on hold for 10 years and be picked right up without missing a beat. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saint-paul-never-quotes-the-gospels/211600/41 "2013-05-22T00:44:56Z")
On the authorship of Hebrews, from the preface to that book in The New Oxford Annotated Bible (2001) When the New Testament was being formed, this anonymous sermon was attributed to Paul, presumably because of the growing authority of Paul’s name and reputation as a letter writer. The early church leaders Origen, Clement, and Tertullian, however, recognized the differences in style and theology between Hebrews and Paul’s letters. Clement argued that Luke translated Paul’s Hebrew original into Greek and Origen suggested that a disciple of Paul’s wrote the letter based on Paul’s notes. Modern interpreters have suggested other authors, including Apollos and Priscilla. There is not sufficient historical evidence, however, to prove that any person named in the New Testament was the author of Hebrews. _The Historical Jesus_ by Theissen and Merz implies that the book is dated from the 2nd century in Egypt. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saint-paul-never-quotes-the-gospels/211600.md?page=1)