# Saint Zero Explains "Immoral" For Us **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 25, 2000, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saint-zero-explains-immoral-for-us/30762 "2000-08-25T20:38:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2000, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saint-zero-explains-immoral-for-us/30762/1 "2000-08-25T20:38:06Z")
OK, in **weirddave** ’s [“So you’re gay. Who gives a rats ass?”](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=35891) thread, **Saint Zero** stated: > [@](#): > > I’m of the opinion it’s {someone’s homosexual orientation} not my business. You wanna do it? Fine. I am opposed morally, but you didn’t ask me. When called a bigot, he said, “I believe it is wrong,” but that it is just his own belief, questioned why people begrudge him for having morals, and added that he has gay friends. When pressed to explain _why_ he thinks homosexuality is immoral, he said: > [@](#): > > I have morals. One of them is that I think homosexuality is immoral. That’s my belief. I don’t recall needing YOUR permission to believe anything. I’m sorry you’ve had a rough life, and seem unable to believe that someone can hate a sin, but love people regardless. That is what I’m trying to do in life. > > Now, I’m going to set a rule for this. You want to talk about this further with me? Start a pit thread. I will not talk about this here any further. Have a nice day. Your every wish is my command. So tell us, O Wise One, why do you think homosexuality is immoral? Do you think it’s a “lifestyle choice,” or do you also disagree with those with blue eyes, are left-handed or have blond hair? Please, clear this up for us, here in The Pit. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Lauralee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Lauralee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lauralee)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2000, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saint-zero-explains-immoral-for-us/30762/2 "2000-08-25T20:44:30Z")
Well, ya know, if I had to guess, it’d be because the code he believes in says it’s wrong. Kinda like lying and stealing and such. Except not as obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2000, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saint-zero-explains-immoral-for-us/30762/3 "2000-08-25T20:46:25Z")
But as has been quoted before, how, precisely, does one disagree with rain? Esprix ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2000, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saint-zero-explains-immoral-for-us/30762/4 "2000-08-25T20:46:43Z")
Any “code” which places homosexuality in the same moral category as lying and stealing is for idiots, frankly. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2000, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saint-zero-explains-immoral-for-us/30762/5 "2000-08-25T20:48:26Z")
Esprix, ol’ chum… I don’t hear him condemning you for liking another guy, I hear him say that his beliefs don’t include a positive view of homosexuality. I think he’s being rather tolerant and accepting. Now, if he said that you were going to burn in hell with a flaming sword shoved up your ass for all eternity, then I’d be able to understand getting all bent out of shape… ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2000, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saint-zero-explains-immoral-for-us/30762/6 "2000-08-25T20:57:18Z")
Trust me, **Spoofe** , I’ve been around long enough that such thinly-veiled bigotry doesn’t get me bent out of shape any more - I know better. Still, it amuses me from time to time, like a cat playing with a mouse. Eventually I will tire, but just having gotten back from vacation, it’s nice to have a little spirited {cough cough} Pit debate, n’est-ce pas? 😉 Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Lauralee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Lauralee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lauralee)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2000, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saint-zero-explains-immoral-for-us/30762/7 "2000-08-25T20:58:51Z")
> [@](#): > > But as has been quoted before, how, precisely, does one disagree with rain? That’s where the different points of view come in. You see as being just as natural as rain. Others don’t. I think SPOOFE’s got it right. I don’t believe that it’s right to have sex with someone who’s the same sex you are. That doesn’t mean that I’m gonna go all fundy and condemn you and everything. I would assume St. Zero is of the same opinon. Though it would be handy if he’d come over here and express it himself. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2000, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saint-zero-explains-immoral-for-us/30762/8 "2000-08-25T21:13:28Z")
Since I’m the one who wrote the post that drove SaintZero into a tizzy, I figure I ought to weigh in here. > [@](#): > > I don’t believe that it’s right to have sex with someone who’s the same sex you are. Well, let’s restate that. “I don’t believe it’s right to have sex with someone who’s a different race than you are.” Does that sit well with you? Is that just a personal opinion? Basically, what gets me is the idea that you people find sexual orientation sinful, and when challenged, you don’t give any evidence or rationale, just that you think so. do you know what the word is for an irrational blanket condemnation of a group or class of people? Prejudice. > [@](#): > > Well, ya know, if I had to guess, it’d be because the code he believes in says it’s wrong. Kinda like lying and > stealing and such. What does loving someone of the same gender have to do with lying or stealing? You need to rethink the poisonous ideas that have been drummed into you. Esprix, thank you for opening the thread. glad to have you back, and a high five for the Durang reference. I love that play. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2000, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saint-zero-explains-immoral-for-us/30762/9 "2000-08-25T21:25:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lauralee \* > **I don’t believe that it’s right to have sex with someone who’s the same sex you are. That doesn’t mean that I’m gonna go all fundy and condemn you and everything. I would assume St. Zero is of the same opinon.** The point _is_, Lauralee, or St. Zero, or whoever else agrees with the above quote, that you don’t _get_ to think it’s wrong. It so far beyond being any business of yours or anyone else’s that I lack the language to express it. The magnitude of arrogance and just plain stupid blindness to the nature of the world you live in that is required to hold such an opinion, much less express it, is just so huge that I’m surprised it doesn’t make it impossible for you even to get around; that you’re not crippled by it. There is no possible way you can justify having such an opinion; it’s not a _matter_ of opinion. The way I was put on this planet for the short time I was put here _lies outside of opinion._ You’re not discussing behavior, despite what your tiny-minded religion’s archaic and narrow view of the universe tells you: you’re discussing _being; selfness; the arbitrarity of creation._ You can “disapprove” of green fingernail polish, or child abuse, or republicanism, or sword swallowing. You can _not_ disapprove of ice, trees, foreigners, time, or the _self_ in which I must spend my allotted time on this planet. To use the words “approve” or “disapprove” or “agree” or “disagree” or “condemn” in regard to these things is like a grammatical mistake or something: these are not things that are subject to such concepts: they are not things in which _opinion_ is of any relevance whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2000, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saint-zero-explains-immoral-for-us/30762/10 "2000-08-25T21:33:13Z")
Although he’s already up to 204 posts since he stopped lurking and started posting, I hereby nominate **lissener** for Newbie of the Year. God_damn_, but that was a good post. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Zero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c4cdca/32.png) [@Saint\_Zero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Zero)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2000, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saint-zero-explains-immoral-for-us/30762/11 "2000-08-25T21:34:32Z")
more than happy to. I’m even a nice guy. > [@](#): > > Your every wish is my command. So tell us, O Wise One, why do you think homosexuality is immoral? Do you think it’s a “lifestyle choice,” or do you also disagree with those with blue eyes, are left-handed or have blond hair? Please, clear this up for us, here in The Pit. [http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom\_bibl.htm#inter](http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibl.htm#inter) This is the best discussion I’ve seen about it. Read it, and I’ll summarize my position and problem. Jesus doesn’t seem to address it. Period. He seems to have spent his time teaching people to love one another and important stuff like that. The “Lifestyle Choice” thing. I dunno. I don’t think it’s genetic, but some people seem to have a predisposition towards it. Problem: Homosexuality seems to be a modern invention. So how to you deal with it? I said I was morally opposed to it. That’s my position. Does that mean hatred? No, that’s against what Jesus taught. Also out is Gaybashing, crude jokes, harrasment, or anything else. All of that is against what He stood for. I never condoned that, which is why I protest the Bigot label. So, is it a sin? That’s the big theological question. Am I in a position to condemm people for possibly violating the will of God? Nope. That’s God’s job. So what has been my practice in real life? When I’m not on the boards, I don’t say anything. Why should I? People elsewhere have debated it with me, and I’ve answered honestly. I also stated I do not judge, because I know for certain I am not wise enough to do so. My morals guide **MY** life. Let me repeat that. **MY** morals guide **MY** life. They are not meant to guide yours. I’m not that wise. So, I’m sorry ya’ll have had it rough. I hate that kids get grief over this. Hell, I went through bad times simply being fat in school. It’s worse to go against the grain and be gay/lesbain. I think that’s pretty complete. If I’ve seemed harsh to anyone, forgive me. It’s been hell here today, and I have been in an absolutely rotten mood. I’ve tried to calm down and debate this at least somewhat sensibly. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2000, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saint-zero-explains-immoral-for-us/30762/12 "2000-08-25T21:37:44Z")
Wow, lissener, that’s a strong point you make there. I couldn’t agree with you more. There was on other thing I wanted to point out about LaurLee’s quote namely: > [@](#): > > **I don’t believe that it’s right to have sex with someone who’s the same sex you are. That doesn’t mean that I’m gonna go all fundy and condemn you and everything.** To say “I don’t believe it is right” is tacit comdemnation. If you don’t think something is “right”, then you think it is “wrong”. By stating that something is “wrong”, you are condemning it. You can’t say that, and in the very next breath say, “but I’m not condemning you or anything.” > [@](#): > > Main Entry: con·demn > Pronunciation: k&n-'dem > Function: transitive verb > Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French condemner, from Latin condemnare, from com- + damnare to condemn – more at DAMN > Date: 14th century > 1 : to declare to be reprehensible, wrong, or evil usually after weighing evidence and without reservation > 2 a : to pronounce guilty : CONVICT b : SENTENCE, DOOM > 3 : to adjudge unfit for use or consumption > 4 : to declare convertible to public use under the right of eminent domain > synonym see CRITICIZE > > - con·dem·nable /-'dem-n&-b&l, -'de-m&-/ adjective > - con·dem·na·to·ry /-'dem-n&-"tOr-E, -'de-m&-, -"tor-/ adjective > - con·demn·er /-'de-m&r/ or con·dem·nor /k&n-'de-m&r; k&n-"dem-'nor, "kän-/ noun ---
**Author:** ![ren](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed655f/32.png) [@ren](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ren)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2000, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saint-zero-explains-immoral-for-us/30762/13 "2000-08-25T21:42:36Z")
> [@](#): > > Problem: Homosexuality seems to be a modern invention. :rolleyes: Bigger problem: Ignorance seems not to be a modern invention. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Zero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c4cdca/32.png) [@Saint\_Zero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Zero)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2000, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saint-zero-explains-immoral-for-us/30762/14 "2000-08-25T21:43:18Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by pldennison \* > \*\*Although he’s already up to 204 posts since he stopped lurking and started posting, I hereby nominate **lissener** for Newbie of the Year. God_damn\*, but that was a good post. \*\* No, pld, I don’t seriously think it was. I don’t debate the existence of anything that I can eat, run into, or have eat me. Cars are real. Trees are real. Asphalt is real. People who cut you off in traffic are real. As is evident here, opinions are not inviolate. People will challenge you on them. I am being called a bigot. They are challenging me on that. Now, are you, lissner, saying they can’t? ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2000, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saint-zero-explains-immoral-for-us/30762/15 "2000-08-25T21:43:34Z")
Saint Zero, I understand what you are saying, however, you don’t really think homosexuality is a “modern invention”, do you? I can almost guarantee you that homosexuality has been around almost as long as there has been a plurality of penises. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Zero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c4cdca/32.png) [@Saint\_Zero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Zero)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2000, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saint-zero-explains-immoral-for-us/30762/16 "2000-08-25T21:44:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ren \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > Problem: Homosexuality seems to be a modern invention. > > Bigger problem: Ignorance seems not to be a modern invention. \*\* No kidding. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Zero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c4cdca/32.png) [@Saint\_Zero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Zero)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2000, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saint-zero-explains-immoral-for-us/30762/17 "2000-08-25T21:46:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jack Batty \* > \*\*Saint Zero, I understand what you are saying, however, you don’t really think homosexuality is a “modern invention”, do you? I can almost guarantee you that homosexuality has been around almost as long as there has been a plurality of penises. \*\* It’s been around for ages, I’ll accept that. I’m thinking it has only become more open and talked about in modern times. ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2000, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saint-zero-explains-immoral-for-us/30762/18 "2000-08-25T21:48:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pldennison \* > \*\*Any “code” which places homosexuality in the same moral category as lying and stealing is for idiots, frankly. \*\* “for idiots” is one possibility. Another is “for the evil.” Looks like we probably have one of the “idiot” variety here, based on the posts so far. But the other sort does exist. ---
**Author:** ![Turpentine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecd19e/32.png) [@Turpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turpentine)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2000, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saint-zero-explains-immoral-for-us/30762/19 "2000-08-25T21:59:03Z")
Homosexuality is not a modern invention- it was just hidden back in the good ol’ days because it was shameful. I am going to say that it is not natural. It occasionally occurs in higher mammals, but only under unnatural conditions. But just because it is not natural does not mean it is morally wrong. A person who has bipolar disorder is not morally wrong. I think this is similar to being gay, but not identical. A person’s bipolar disorder can be alleviated with medication, but it cannot be changed. Since being gay is not hurting anyone, why should anyone try to change it? It makes more sense to celebrate who you are, and turn something unnatural into something favorable. Art is unnatural, yet it is often beautiful. It can also be offensive and shocking to others at times, but it should not be supressed. ---
**Author:** ![oldscratch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ed655f/32.png) [@oldscratch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oldscratch)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2000, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saint-zero-explains-immoral-for-us/30762/20 "2000-08-25T22:04:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Saint Zero \* > \*\* > It’s been around for ages, I’ll accept that. I’m thinking it has only become more open and talked about in modern times. \*\* That’s a big leap from your earlier post, stating that homosexuallity is recent. So what really bugs you is the fact that it’s open? If those dirty fags kept it to themselves like in the fifties it be ok. If highschool kids get ridculed and abused becasue they are attracted to the same sex, that ok? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saint-zero-explains-immoral-for-us/30762.md?page=2)