# Salem witch trials NOT because of Ergot... **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [January 14, 2005, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/salem-witch-trials-not-because-of-ergot/284714 "2005-01-14T14:51:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2005, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/salem-witch-trials-not-because-of-ergot/284714/21 "2005-02-08T03:37:47Z")
Actually, belief in witches has been regarded as a leftover pagan superstition (you _do_ know that it’s a worldwide belief as old as mankind, with no special relation to the Bible, don’t you?) for most of the history of Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![kung\_fu\_lola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f4b2a3/32.png) [@kung\_fu\_lola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kung_fu_lola)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2005, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/salem-witch-trials-not-because-of-ergot/284714/22 "2005-02-08T04:13:25Z")
I remember a _Newsweek_ article that claimed to trace the Witch Trials to a disagreement over inheritance and the right of women to hold property. Has anyone else heard this theory? ---
**Author:** ![Tenar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@Tenar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tenar)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2005, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/salem-witch-trials-not-because-of-ergot/284714/23 "2005-02-08T04:52:40Z")
> [@IAMMYOWNGOD](#): > > I would love to hear from a Jew or Christian who could defend their belief in witches and/or this passage from the Bible. Please inform me - how do you identify witches No offense, but this seems more suited to Great Debates (if it is your intention to debate belief in witches) or to General Questions (if you are asking a factual question regarding the identification of witches). Otherwise, though – welcome to SDMB. Enjoy your stay. ---
**Author:** ![IAMMYOWNGOD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/46a35a/32.png) [@IAMMYOWNGOD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IAMMYOWNGOD)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2005, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/salem-witch-trials-not-because-of-ergot/284714/24 "2005-02-08T19:10:01Z")
The key point that you seem to be missing is that “God” himself is commanding humans (via Moses) to kill witches. I would agree that this is likely a leftover pagan superstition - but from a believer’s point of view, this must be taken as a command from “God.” In fairness, this passage seems to be a candidate for something arbitrarily added, perhaps during the writing of the King James version of the Bible. The passage sticks out like a sore thumb. The only relevant context anywhere near it is “Thou shalt not kill” - a contradictory statement. > [@John W. Kennedy](#): > > Actually, belief in witches has been regarded as a leftover pagan superstition (you _do_ know that it’s a worldwide belief as old as mankind, with no special relation to the Bible, don’t you?) for most of the history of Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2005, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/salem-witch-trials-not-because-of-ergot/284714/25 "2005-02-08T22:48:17Z")
> [@IAMMYOWNGOD](#): > > The key point that you seem to be missing is that “God” himself is commanding humans (via Moses) to kill witches. I would agree that this is likely a leftover pagan superstition - but from a believer’s point of view, this must be taken as a command from “God.” In fairness, this passage seems to be a candidate for something arbitrarily added, perhaps during the writing of the King James version of the Bible. No. > [@IAMMYOWNGOD](#): > > The passage sticks out like a sore thumb. Not particularly. The whole thing is a laundry list. > [@IAMMYOWNGOD](#): > > The only relevant context anywhere near it is “Thou shalt not kill” - a contradictory statement. Actually, that should be translated, “Thou shalt do no murder.” In any case, the exact meaning of the word that is translated “witch” is in doubt. The etymological sense is “poisoner”, but it is not clear whether that was its meaning at the time – and, one way or the other, “poisoner” and “witch”, culturally, are closely allied concepts. As C. S. Lewis points out, we don’t have witch-hunts any more because we don’t believe in witches. But if we _did_ believe in witches, _i.e.,_ in people who have made an arrangement with the Devil to gain supernatural powers in order to do harm to their neighbors, then who could possibly deserve death more than such filthy quislings? ---
**Author:** ![IAMMYOWNGOD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/46a35a/32.png) [@IAMMYOWNGOD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IAMMYOWNGOD)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2005, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/salem-witch-trials-not-because-of-ergot/284714/26 "2005-02-09T19:08:34Z")
> [@John W. Kennedy](#): > > No.Not particularly. The whole thing is a laundry list.Actually, that should be translated, “Thou shalt do no murder.” > > In any case, the exact meaning of the word that is translated “witch” is in doubt. The etymological sense is “poisoner”, but it is not clear whether that was its meaning at the time – and, one way or the other, “poisoner” and “witch”, culturally, are closely allied concepts. > > As C. S. Lewis points out, we don’t have witch-hunts any more because we don’t believe in witches. But if we _did_ believe in witches, _i.e.,_ in people who have made an arrangement with the Devil to gain supernatural powers in order to do harm to their neighbors, then who could possibly deserve death more than such filthy quislings? I can’t remember my source, but I did read that the closest translation is “an evil, female spell-caster.” Even if you do believe in witches and thought they should be killed, how would you identify them? “God” in the Bible doesn’t say how to do that! And that’s why I mention it hear because the misguided folks in Salem must’ve read this particular commandment from their god and tragically felt compelled to follow it. ---
**Author:** ![IAMMYOWNGOD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/46a35a/32.png) [@IAMMYOWNGOD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IAMMYOWNGOD)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2005, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/salem-witch-trials-not-because-of-ergot/284714/27 "2005-02-09T19:20:16Z")
I can’t remember my source, but I read that the original translation is “an evil, female spell-caster” (which brings up the point - aren’t there male witches and don’t they deserve execution as well?). Even if you believe in witches and are willing to execute them as “God” commanded, how will you identify them? “God” doesn’t say how to do that in the Bible. I think it’s very likely that the misguided folks in Salem were familiar with Exodus 22:18 and tragically decided to obey their god’s commandment. > [@John W. Kennedy](#): > > No.Not particularly. The whole thing is a laundry list.Actually, that should be translated, “Thou shalt do no murder.” > > In any case, the exact meaning of the word that is translated “witch” is in doubt. The etymological sense is “poisoner”, but it is not clear whether that was its meaning at the time – and, one way or the other, “poisoner” and “witch”, culturally, are closely allied concepts. > > As C. S. Lewis points out, we don’t have witch-hunts any more because we don’t believe in witches. But if we _did_ believe in witches, _i.e.,_ in people who have made an arrangement with the Devil to gain supernatural powers in order to do harm to their neighbors, then who could possibly deserve death more than such filthy quislings? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2005, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/salem-witch-trials-not-because-of-ergot/284714/28 "2005-02-09T20:24:43Z")
> [@IAMMYOWNGOD](#): > > (which brings up the point - aren’t there male witches and don’t they deserve execution as well?). One of the people accused of witchcraft at Salem (who died after being pressed with stones after refusing to enter a plea), was a man, Giles Corey. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2005, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/salem-witch-trials-not-because-of-ergot/284714/29 "2005-02-09T20:27:49Z")
Further, six of the witches found guilty and executed at Salem were men: George Burroughs, John Willard, George Jacobs, Sr., John Proctor, Wilmott Redd, and Samuel Wardwell. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2005, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/salem-witch-trials-not-because-of-ergot/284714/30 "2005-02-09T23:31:43Z")
> [@sheherazahde](#): > > The West Memphis three looks more like a simple case of scapegoating using socially acceptable stereotypes, then a full blown Satanic panic. Three children were killed so there was a crime that needed to be investigated. And I didn’t see anything about widespread mob fear of Satanist in the area. > > But I don’t know much about the particular case. [The WM3 have been discussed at great length here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=194689&highlight=west+memphis), you should take a look. ---
**Author:** ![tgs222](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tgs222](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tgs222)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/salem-witch-trials-not-because-of-ergot/284714/31 "2013-10-25T14:05:03Z")
> [@Menocchio](#): > > That’s what I meant. If the girls had St Anthony’s Fire / ergotism, they would have been diagnosed as such, not as victims of an unknown and possibly supernatural ailment. The Salem folks would have recognized ergotism. This wasn’t it. Ergotism was not really well understood until about 1820 (except by Jesus). I Googled a bit on doctors and ergotism and did not get any confidence that Salem’s doctors (if any) would have ID’d this. Do you have a source? I had shingles (something remotely similar) 15 years ago & it was properly diagnosed by my physical therapist & my doctor never acknowledged that I had shingles. Ergotism had to be much less common. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/salem-witch-trials-not-because-of-ergot/284714/32 "2013-10-25T15:23:47Z")
> [@tgs222](#): > > Ergotism was not really well understood until about 1820 (except by Jesus). I Googled a bit on doctors and ergotism and did not get any confidence that Salem’s doctors (if any) would have ID’d this. Do you have a source? I had shingles (something remotely similar) 15 years ago & it was properly diagnosed by my physical therapist & my doctor never acknowledged that I had shingles. Ergotism had to be much less common. You revived an eight year old thread to ask a question of someone that hasn’t posted here for almost five years. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/salem-witch-trials-not-because-of-ergot/284714/33 "2013-10-25T17:41:03Z")
> [@tgs222](#): > > Ergotism was not really well understood until about 1820 (except by Jesus). Jesus who? Did he live in Salem, Mass.? Was he a doctor? Researcher? ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/salem-witch-trials-not-because-of-ergot/284714/34 "2013-10-25T19:32:53Z")
'Tis the season for zombies! ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/salem-witch-trials-not-because-of-ergot/284714/35 "2013-10-25T22:24:11Z")
> [@Gagundathar](#): > > 'Tis the season for zombies! I bet even real Salem witches never raised zombies. Whether ergotic or not. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/salem-witch-trials-not-because-of-ergot/284714/36 "2013-10-25T22:37:05Z")
> [@gnoitall](#): > > I bet even real Salem witches never raised zombies. Whether ergotic or not. ergot zombie? ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2013, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/salem-witch-trials-not-because-of-ergot/284714/37 "2013-10-25T23:15:52Z")
> [@gnoitall](#): > > I bet even real Salem witches never raised zombies. Whether ergotic or not. I want to raise a zombie. What do I plant? ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2013, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/salem-witch-trials-not-because-of-ergot/284714/38 "2013-10-26T00:16:10Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > I want to raise a zombie. What do I plant? I hear plants fight zombies. ---
**Author:** ![Ignatz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/3be4f8/32.png) [@Ignatz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ignatz)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2013, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/salem-witch-trials-not-because-of-ergot/284714/39 "2013-10-26T01:49:18Z")
Five of the “witches” were exonerated by the acting Mass. governor on Halloween 2001. ---
**Author:** ![bahimes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e36b37/32.png) [@bahimes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bahimes)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/salem-witch-trials-not-because-of-ergot/284714/40 "2013-10-28T09:11:21Z")
> [@simster](#): > > ergot zombie? Ergo… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/salem-witch-trials-not-because-of-ergot/284714.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/salem-witch-trials-not-because-of-ergot/284714.md?page=3)