Geez Colibri, I was lucky to get through high school!
The reason for my German analogy was that maybe they have been doing this for a longer time than us and might give us a clue as to the origin of salutations, particularly Doctor. As you said, the Germans are very much into this kind of thing. I may not understand their logic, but they seem to call M.S. and M.D.'s, Doktor, Ph.D.'s, at least in engineering, Doktor Professor, regardless of their university association. But I real don’t know, just my recollection?
Just kidding DrDoom. I wasn’t sure whether you were an associate of Dr. Kevorkian or a super-villian.
I certainly can’t speak from personal experience about German usage, but in a German course I took they did mention the German habit of piling on the honorifics. (Imagine addressing someone as Mister Doctor Professor Smith in English.) Certainly usage of Professor is loose in the U.S, and will often be used for anyone with an advanced degree or any higher academic position. But I would expect Germans to take a lot of care about that sort of thing.
But, SUA, do you think as highly of your (Juris) Doctorate as you do of Ph.Ds? I mean in terms of effort in getting it, and prestige from having it. Just curious.
I’d only add that, in law, you get the Doctorate then the Masters (if you keep going) then the Ph.D. (for hard-core academics only). I’ve always considered my degree to be the functional equivalent of a Masters, but not on the same level as a Ph.D. in another subject. It certainly didn’t take as long to get, and I didn’t have to write a dissertation (neener neener neener).
Actually, Jodi, that’s because the J.D. is actually a renamed bachelors degree. Originally, the degree granted on the completion of law school was the LL.B. (bachelor of laws). If you look at the c.v. of some older lawyers or senior law professors, you will see that they often have a B.A. or B.S. and a LL.B.
I believe that this dates back to the period when an undergraduate bachelors was not required for law school. Because a law degree could be the initial academic degree granted, it was properly a bachelor’s degree. The “advanced” law degrees, LL.M. (masters of law) and S.J.D. (doctor of juridical science) or LL.D. (doctor of laws, though I think I’ve only seen this as an honorary degree) were ones received after one’s “bachelors.”
The story that I’ve heard is that sometime in the 1950’s or 60’s some clever lawyers figured out that federal government employees that held a doctoral degree were paid much more than similarly-ranked ones with merely a bachelors. They convinced the law schools to award a J.D. (Juris Doctor) as their initial degree in lieu of the LL.B. I also understand that the schools allowed LL.B. holders to upgrade their LL.B.'s to J.D.'s if necessary.
The custom of not referring to J.D.'s as “doctor” probably stems from the historical basis of this doctoral degree. Also, it would have been anomalous for the younger lawyers with “doctoral” degrees to be called “doctor”, while the more senior ones retaining their bachelors would not be entitled to such a title.
I understand that in Germany and many other continental European countries attorneys usually have a full-blown doctoral degrees and are usually referred to professionally as “Doctor.”
In law school, we generally referred to our professors as “Professor,” except for one particularly pompous fellow who had a Ph.D. as well as a law degree who was insistent that he be called “Doctor.”
Dr Doom:
I understand that one of the Nazis who was in charge of some nefarious activities on a section of the Eastern Front held two Doctorates and so was in German practice properly (and often) called “Doctor Doctor X.”
My understanding is that the Germans are quite careful and precise about academic titles.
I have an uncle that holds both M.D. and Ph.D. degrees. He was lecturing in Germany at one point. When his sponsors found out he had two doctorates rather than one, they felt compelled to reprint a bunch of materials to change his title from “Prof. Dr.” to “Prof. Dr. Dr.”
