# Salvation Army says Gays should be put to death **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 23, 2012, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/salvation-army-says-gays-should-be-put-to-death/626007 "2012-06-23T01:36:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![mister\_nyx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@mister\_nyx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mister_nyx)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/salvation-army-says-gays-should-be-put-to-death/626007/41 "2012-06-25T00:52:55Z")
> [@tapu](#): > > And that’s not sufficient cause for outrage? Rights movements wouldn’t get very far, saying “Oh that’s just the usual stuff.” “They’re saying people like us deserve to die!” “Nothing much to see here, this is just normal and ordinary.” It’s true, but it’s also a typical way to try to derail discussions of things like this which are, and ought to be, outrageous. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/salvation-army-says-gays-should-be-put-to-death/626007/42 "2012-06-25T01:04:30Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Paul of Tarsus merely elaborated on the teachings of Christ (and those of his writings which are preserved in the Bible are divinely inspired it should be noted along with the gospels). In fact he fully freed Christians from the legalism of the Law (if one were to read Galatians). Ah yes, the first in long line of “divinely inspired” preachers “elaborating on” the teachings of Christ. May God save us from them all. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/salvation-army-says-gays-should-be-put-to-death/626007/43 "2012-06-25T01:43:29Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Paul of Tarsus merely elaborated on the teachings of Christ (and those of his writings which are preserved in the Bible are divinely inspired it should be noted along with the gospels). In fact he fully freed Christians from the legalism of the Law (if one were to read Galatians). Ya, impersonating my cousin is not actually doing a lot for me. In my humble opinion, Paul was a politician who simply made Christianity more tolerable for the Roman ruling classes. He re-interpreted the gospel, and certainly brought his anti-women point of view to the fore. Divinely inspired? Right. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/salvation-army-says-gays-should-be-put-to-death/626007/44 "2012-06-25T02:04:22Z")
> [@mister\_nyx](#): > > The straightforward reading of that passage in Romans, incidentally, says that people who have gay sex deserve to die. (It’s a passage I’m familiar with.) Certainly churches may and do interpret scripture with an understanding that the simplest reading is not necessarily correct. Sorry, but that’s not consistent with my simple reading of it. My take: The tribe in the adjoining territory is urban and has lost touch with G-d. So G-d punished them by making them gay - how humiliating![sup]1[/sup] The tribe in the adjoining territory also suffers from a long litany of sins, ending with the following: > [@](#): > > ..they have no understanding, no fidelity, _no love, no mercy_ Emphasis added. [Subtext: some of those sins seem uncomfortably familiar, no?] ## Chapter 2: So strive to be good, but don’t be a judgmental prick. Now let’s give the long quote: > [@Saint Paul in his Letter to the Romans](#): > > 18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. > > 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. > > 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. > > 26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. > > 28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32\*\* Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.\*\* > > 2.1 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2 Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance? > > 5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath , when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 Emphasis added. Again. A plain reading indicates that homosexual orientation is God’s punishment, not a sin _per se_, because sins involve choice. The sins are being “…filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy.” The only thing in that list that’s _possibly_ kinky is, “Inventing ways of doing evil”. And that’s a matter of interpretation. I guess there’s also “Depravity”. Does anybody know the Greek for that? [sup]1[/sup]Is that homophobic? Sure it is. I’m just saying I don’t see the Fags Must Die interpretation. ---
**Author:** ![mister\_nyx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@mister\_nyx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mister_nyx)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/salvation-army-says-gays-should-be-put-to-death/626007/45 "2012-06-25T02:12:14Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > A plain reading indicates that homosexual orientation is God’s punishment Indeed! And it’s a sign that the LORD has abandoned us to hellfire. Hallelujah! . . . maybe you thought this was, like, news. But it’s emphatically not a new thing to a whole hell of a lot of us whom the LORD has decided to mark by driving us to sinful urges as a mark of His abandonment of us due to our sins against Him. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/salvation-army-says-gays-should-be-put-to-death/626007/46 "2012-06-25T04:45:20Z")
> [@mister\_nyx](#): > > Indeed! And it’s a sign that the LORD has abandoned us to hellfire. Hallelujah! > > . . . maybe you thought this was, like, news. But it’s emphatically not a new thing to a whole hell of a lot of us whom the LORD has decided to mark by driving us to sinful urges as a mark of His abandonment of us due to our sins against Him. 1. “A sign” is an interpretation not supported by Romans. That’s an extrapolation. 2. Ryan, quoted in the OP, claims that Romans states that gays deserve death. In post 9, mister nyx agreed. I maintain that a plain reading of the text does not support that interpretation. 3a. The passage is homophobic, which surprises nobody. Frankly though, the particular passage and the Bible in general is a lot less homophobic than fundamentalists make out. 3b. Although I trust that greater effort can bend the text in more humane ways. Again though, I’m saying that you don’t have to do that to reject the contention that it calls for the death of gays. If anything, Paul calls for the death of those without mercy, fidelity or love, though actually I think it’s part of dissing his neighbors while simultaneously saying _you are our neighbor_. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/salvation-army-says-gays-should-be-put-to-death/626007/47 "2012-06-25T08:38:38Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Good thing they stop reading there, eh? Because just after that… > > _ **Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whenever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.** _ > > Of course, this is Pauline doctrine, as evidenced by Romans 2:16 where **Paul** says “…according to _ **my** _ gospel”. > > Not God’s gospel, not Jesus’ gospel. PAUL’S GOSPEL. > > I have a small problem with that. I’m confused, maybe because in Spanish we never refer to it as “Jesus’ gospel” or “God’s gospel”. They’re the gospels of whomever is telling them… Marks’ gospel, Luke’s gospel… and yes, Paul’s gospel. It’s shorthand for “the way Soandso understands/explains it”. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/salvation-army-says-gays-should-be-put-to-death/626007/48 "2012-06-25T14:16:57Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I agree with **cckerberos** , though, that interpreting the Salvation Army spokesperson’s statements as saying “gays should be put to death” is weaseling a bit in the other direction. > > I condemn and reject any doctrine that holds that gays “deserve death” for being gay. But such doctrines are **not** necessarily the same thing as saying “the state ought to impose capital punishment for homosexuality”, which is what the melodramatic phrase “gays should be put to death” implies. Really? What do you think it actually means then? > [@](#): > > There are plenty of conservative Christians who **do** literally, explicitly advocate instituting capital punishment for homosexuality in the civil legal code, which is appalling. But AFAIK the Salvation Army does not support any such policy, and this guy’s remarks don’t suggest to me that he or anybody else in the Salvation Army seriously thinks that they should. Yet it appears that’s just what they do support. > [@](#): > > So for everybody who charged into this thread thinking they were going to be outraged by Salvation Army protesters chanting “Fry the Queers” outside the state legislature, I recommend taking a deep breath, untwisting the panties, and dialing down the shock and horror. Not really anything to see here except unremarkably typical homophobes being homophobic in an unremarkably typical way. No. ---
**Author:** ![mister\_nyx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@mister\_nyx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mister_nyx)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/salvation-army-says-gays-should-be-put-to-death/626007/49 "2012-06-25T14:56:02Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Really? > > What do you think it actually means then? > > Yet it appears that’s just what they do support. > > No. Calm down, man. The Salvation Army spokesperson said that anyone who’s had gay sex deserves death. As Kimstu rightly said, untwist your panties, because it’s totally ridiculous to get upset about that. “Dial back the shock and horror” because while that may sound shocking and horrible to some, Kimstu is pretty sure that’s just because their panties are in a bunch. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/salvation-army-says-gays-should-be-put-to-death/626007/50 "2012-06-25T15:00:31Z")
> [@mister\_nyx](#): > > Calm down, man. The Salvation Army spokesperson said that anyone who’s had gay sex deserves death. As Kimstu rightly said, untwist your panties, because it’s totally ridiculous to get upset about that. “Dial back the shock and horror” because while that may sound shocking and horrible to some, Kimstu is pretty sure that’s just because their panties are in a bunch. Oh, sorry. I’m so hysterical sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/salvation-army-says-gays-should-be-put-to-death/626007/51 "2012-06-25T15:14:02Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > FYI, here is another [Australian Salvation Army page](http://www.salvationarmy.org.au/about-us_65047/media-centre/current-media-releases/human-sexuality.html), from the main organization, not just the territorial division, that lists Craib as the main contact for media questions related to the Salvations Army’s position on human sexuality. Wait, let me get this straight. This guy was their **official spokesmanon human sexuality**?? From the interview I assumed he was some random higher-up who was blindsided by the question and had no authorization to discuss policy. If this is their go to guy for media relations regarding sexuality, they really need to find someone else. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/salvation-army-says-gays-should-be-put-to-death/626007/52 "2012-06-25T15:24:01Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Wait, let me get this straight. This guy was their **official spokesmanon human sexuality**?? From the interview I assumed he was some random higher-up who was blindsided by the question and had no authorization to discuss policy. If this is their go to guy for media relations regarding sexuality, they really need to find someone else. Maybe he made the mistake of telling the truth about their views. ---
**Author:** ![mister\_nyx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@mister\_nyx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mister_nyx)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/salvation-army-says-gays-should-be-put-to-death/626007/53 "2012-06-25T15:27:31Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Wait, let me get this straight. This guy was their **official spokesmanon human sexuality**?? From the interview I assumed he was some random higher-up who was blindsided by the question and had no authorization to discuss policy. If this is their go to guy for media relations regarding sexuality, they really need to find someone else. No, they don’t. If this is their “Biblical” belief, they shouldn’t feel any shame sharing it. And every decent human being should be glad that these fuckos are being straightforward. Everything’s better when they’re honest about their opinions. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/salvation-army-says-gays-should-be-put-to-death/626007/54 "2012-06-25T15:29:58Z")
> [@mister\_nyx](#): > > No, they don’t. If this is their “Biblical” belief, they shouldn’t feel any shame sharing it. Yes, they should. Bibical belief is no excuse. The Bible is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/salvation-army-says-gays-should-be-put-to-death/626007/55 "2012-06-25T17:07:30Z")
I think the point is it would better if they didn’t actually hold their vile belief. But as long as they do hold it, it’s better that their spokesperson does not hide it. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/salvation-army-says-gays-should-be-put-to-death/626007/56 "2012-06-25T18:07:43Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Ya, impersonating my cousin is not actually doing a lot for me. > > In my humble opinion, Paul was a politician who simply made Christianity more tolerable for the Roman ruling classes. He re-interpreted the gospel, and certainly brought his anti-women point of view to the fore. > > Divinely inspired? Right. Well if Paul of Tarsus was simply trying to make Christianity more popular among the Roman ruling class, he’d probably have tried to get around the whole “no worshipping Emperors” doctrine (which was the primary reason why Christians were persecuted in the Roman Empire). And considering the times, Paul was not a misogynist-he condemned men who did not support their families and believed both husbands and wives had duties to each other. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/salvation-army-says-gays-should-be-put-to-death/626007/57 "2012-06-25T20:14:22Z")
> [@cckerberos](#): > > Those don’t seem to be particularly noteworthy tenants for Christians to hold. Noteworthy is in the eye of the beholder. Besides, if you’re going to hold tenants, make sure it’s explicitly allowed in the rental agreement. ---
**Author:** ![Kimballkid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b5a626/32.png) [@Kimballkid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimballkid)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/salvation-army-says-gays-should-be-put-to-death/626007/58 "2012-06-25T20:39:58Z")
> [@](#): > > insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. Sounds like teenagers. ---
**Author:** ![Snite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Snite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snite)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/salvation-army-says-gays-should-be-put-to-death/626007/59 "2012-06-26T03:28:11Z")
Paul actually didn’t write the women hating stuff. The earliest copies on hand of Paul’s writings don’t mention hating on women, and he refers to a woman as being “foremost amongst the apostles!” He did write that when a woman prophecizes she should probably have her head covered, but no biggie if she doesn’t. Based on how the woman hating verses first showed up in copies made in a specific region, and also appeared in various places in the passage, scholars think a copyist wrote some women hating in the column of his manuscript and later copyists wrote it down thinking it was actual verse. All details my less-than-perfect memory can’t provide can be found by reading the works of Bart Ehrman, a biblical scholar who has devoted a lot of effort of making the mountain of research done on the Bible(specifically the New Testament) layman-accessable. But yeah, what can you expect from any organization who takes its morality cues from a book which demands rapist and rape victim be married, slavery is totaly cool, and a man proves his righteousness before God by offering up his own daughters to mob to be raped in lieu of the total stranger staying in his house for a night? Anyone who calls themselves Christian and isn’t actively antagonized by what their own Bible says is good and just is either sticking their fingers in their ears singing “la la la” or is just a terrible person. Actually, the former is pretty terrible too. I know when I was a believer, my soul was in constant agony until I finally decided I would live by my own morality instead of what my Bible told me. And then I eventually realized I would better myself simply by not believing. And to this day, I constantly find myself doing the right thing for it’s own sake more than any Christian I know. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/salvation-army-says-gays-should-be-put-to-death/626007/60 "2012-06-26T04:03:20Z")
Incidentally, it should be noted that in Christian theology all men are considered sinners and thus deserving of death and damnation which made the Atonement necessary. I haven’t read the SA book, so I have no idea whether it means this or whether the fellow was arguing that it’d be good to execute homosexuals or its not really “murder”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/salvation-army-says-gays-should-be-put-to-death/626007.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/salvation-army-says-gays-should-be-put-to-death/626007.md?page=4)