# Sam Harris is a pseudoscientist, and anyone who follows him is deceived! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 22, 2016, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-is-a-pseudoscientist-and-anyone-who-follows-him-is-deceived/760555 "2016-07-22T03:30:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![erysichthon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d07c76/32.png) [@erysichthon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erysichthon)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2016, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-is-a-pseudoscientist-and-anyone-who-follows-him-is-deceived/760555/41 "2016-07-23T05:37:25Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > This was going to be a Pit thread calling **SlackerInc** a hateful piece of filth, but meh. I’m disappointed. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2016, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-is-a-pseudoscientist-and-anyone-who-follows-him-is-deceived/760555/42 "2016-07-23T09:28:48Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > I agree with all of this to a point. > > Science can’t outright give us morality, but it _can_ look a certain way and gesture determinedly. Science can (and should!) certainly inform our moral goals, as well as help us achieve them. If we value the well-being of conscious beings, then science may be able to tell us which entities have conscious experience, and thus, count as moral subjects, as well as how to minimize suffering (or maximize happiness, which are two distinct moral aims) among them. However, science does not tell us that we ought to value the well-being of conscious entities in the first place. > [@](#): > > As a simple example, abstinence-only sex ed doesn’t reduce teen pregnancy. Therefore, those who propose it (nay, _insist upon it_) aren’t really interested in reducing teen pregnancy, regardless of what they claim to support. Well, even if it did work, it does not therefore follow that those who support it support it for that reason; but more importantly, whether it works or not has no bearing on whether it’s good or bad. And it’s that sort of conclusion that Harris draws again and again. > [@](#): > > Similarly, claims of life after death are falsified to the extent anything can be falsified by our knowledge of how consciousness works; you have to change the definition into things like “living on in our memories” or similar unless you’re really determined to ignore the whole field of neurology. I’m not sure what you’re arguing here. Certainly, you’re not meaning to suggest that ethics is somehow akin to woo medicine and belief in life after death? Because there’s of course the very important difference that the latter make in-principle empirical statements, no matter how much their proponents attempt to avoid their actual testing, while ethics exactly makes no claims on what is, but on what ought to be—on what we should value, not on what the facts are. So, it’s a fact that may be discovered by empirical inquiry that homeopathy is bunk (actually, a fact that _has_ long since been discovered), but it’s not such a fact that, say, certain animals ought to be granted moral status. > [@](#): > > Everything you said is quite reasonable. I just doubt it’s what most people mean when they use the term ‘scientism’. (Which is a common trait with some dishonest groups: Define your terms two ways, a safe way and an exciting way, and when you’re challenged on the exciting definition, move back to the safe one: You’re in favor of “Securing Our Borders”, which can mean either patrolling the borders to make sure drug cartels don’t have a free reign (safe definition) or getting those damned brown people out so they don’t compete with low-income white people for work (exciting definition); anyone who tries to call you on using that term is obviously delusional because you _only_ mean the safe definition, and would _never_ support the exciting one (where anyone outside your group can hear)… ) Well, but here you’re just espousing your own bias, that those using the term ‘scientism’ are necessarily dishonest. As I said, I think there is a very legitimate use of the term, denoting a real and unfortunate phenomenon that I think needs to be opposed in rational debate. > [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > Actually, I think his example works better than mere analogy. Because health is a component of well-being, demonstrating an empirical component of health means there’s an empirical component to well-being, and hence moral action. This is exactly the naturalistic fallacy that pretty much Harris’ entire argument rests upon: in order to claim this empirical component, one first needs to accept that well-being is a moral goal; but, while there are good arguments to do so from various moral traditions—e.g. utilitarianism—this is itself not an empirical claim. As Hume points out, it is not contrary to reason to prefer the destruction of the world to the scratching of my finger—it merely depends on what you value. And while you can make (good) arguments against, say, advocating the destruction of the human race, those arguments are not of an empirical nature. So Harris can only claim an empirical component by first accepting a particular non-empirical stance (human well-being is good); this then of course doesn’t help him at all towards establishing that there’s an empirical component to moral values. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2016, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-is-a-pseudoscientist-and-anyone-who-follows-him-is-deceived/760555/43 "2016-07-23T16:54:42Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > The purpose of his analogy–and extreme examples–was to dismantle the three “challenges” he put forward (the Value, Persuasion, and Measurement problems). Yes, I know. But as the analysis I quoted above shows, that analogy is severely flawed. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2016, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-is-a-pseudoscientist-and-anyone-who-follows-him-is-deceived/760555/44 "2016-07-23T17:24:21Z")
I read one of his books and thought he made some pretty good points, he is very good with metaphors. Also he holds a PhD in neuroscience from UCLA. I do not know much of his views on genetics or free will, but he is not a dumb person. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2016, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-is-a-pseudoscientist-and-anyone-who-follows-him-is-deceived/760555/45 "2016-07-23T17:33:10Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Sam Harris is great! Just like Bill Maher, actual is a REAL liberal, ie doesn’t give Islam a free pass. Liberals and their desire to appear ‘tolerant’ by not even admitting some of the negatives of contemporary Islam is like is pathetic. They are so afraid of being labeled un-PC that they won’t even call a spade a spade. Of the nations which have backwards views on minorities, women, gays, religious tolerance, etc many are Islamic nations. I don’t like or agree with Trump, but he had a point where he said that standing up to Islamist fundamentalism was a way to support the LGBT community. > **[Muslim attitudes about LGBT are complex, far from universally anti-gay](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2016/06/17/muslim-lgbt-gay-views/86046404/)** > > As one of a tiny number of openly gay imams in the world, Daayiee Abdullah has felt the sting of rebuke from fellow Muslims. No good Muslim can be gay, they say. And traditional schools of Islamic law consider homosexuality a grave sin. Having said that, American Muslim’s attitudes towards gays was not much different than other Christian groups and far higher than groups like Mormons. > **[In America, Muslims Are More Likely to Support Gay Marriage Than Evangelical...](https://reason.com/2016/06/13/in-america-muslims-are-more-likely-to-su/)** > > Don't succumb to the fear that U.S. followers of Islam are time bombs waiting to explode. However, there is no risk of Mormon’s killing someone for being gay overseas. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2016, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-is-a-pseudoscientist-and-anyone-who-follows-him-is-deceived/760555/46 "2016-07-23T23:01:31Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > I’m not sure what you’re arguing here. Certainly, you’re not meaning to suggest that ethics is somehow akin to woo medicine and belief in life after death? Of course not. I’m arguing that some religious beliefs, even those which are tied to ethics (as in, do good or go to Hell), can be falsified in a reasonable sense of the term and are not beyond what science can reason about. In short, basing your ethics on eternal reward or punishment can be made to look quite perilous by evidence from neurology that the conscious mind has a purely physical explanation. > [@](#): > > So, it’s a fact that may be discovered by empirical inquiry that homeopathy is bunk (actually, a fact that has long since been discovered), but it’s not such a fact that, say, certain animals ought to be granted moral status. Taking “moral status” to mean what I imagine is reasonable, science can, at least, give us the tools to make our determination of which animals have it self-consistent from a factual standpoint. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2016, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-is-a-pseudoscientist-and-anyone-who-follows-him-is-deceived/760555/47 "2016-07-23T23:16:09Z")
OP, There is quite a bit of evidence that genetics determine some personality traits. It’s actually a budding field of science which is ever-growing in support of Sam Harris’ general perspective. Signed, Debbie Downer ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2016, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-is-a-pseudoscientist-and-anyone-who-follows-him-is-deceived/760555/48 "2016-07-23T23:29:44Z")
Of course genes can determine personality traits. If you’re born incredibly incredibly attractive or incredibly ugly, people will treat you differently and that’s going to have an effect on your personality. Same if you’re very short or very tall, very fat or very thin. There’s also evidence that some psychopathic traits such as callousness and reduced emotional affect are heritable. Same with depression and obsessive-compulsive tendencies. ---
**Author:** ![Lee\_Q](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/aeb1de/32.png) [@Lee\_Q](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lee_Q)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-is-a-pseudoscientist-and-anyone-who-follows-him-is-deceived/760555/49 "2016-07-24T01:27:06Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > I first confused Sam Harris with Sam Smith the 2015 Grammy winner for _Stay With Me_. And I was like, why does **foolsguinea** hate that song? I did something similar when Harris first crossed my radar, confusing him with a singer. In my case, I confused him with a singer who shares the actual name - Sam Harris, a guy who was on the first season of Star Search years ago. In fact I think he was the winner. Singing competition shows are so common now but back then it was a real novelty. But yeah, it took a while before I stopped thinking the Star Search guy with the super dramatic rendition of “Somewhere Over the Rainbow” had become a famous antheist! :eek:😃 ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-is-a-pseudoscientist-and-anyone-who-follows-him-is-deceived/760555/50 "2016-07-24T03:18:59Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > I don’t like or agree with Trump, but he had a point where he said that standing up to Islamist fundamentalism was a way to support the LGBT community. Not when you are _replacing_ it with rabidly anti-LGBT people like his followers, and in larger numbers with government backing. Which is what putting him in power would do. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-is-a-pseudoscientist-and-anyone-who-follows-him-is-deceived/760555/51 "2016-07-24T03:56:00Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > If _you_ like him, he obviously has been giving Jewish nationalism all the free passes. > > In fact, _you’re_ such a knee-jerk Israel triumphalist when it comes to Israel/Palestine that you liking someone’s politics is reason to worry about that person’s judgment. > [Israel/Palestinians: Your Take - Great Debates - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=787953) What do you hate about “Jewish Nationalism” so much? Do you also despise Arab Nationalism, German Nationalism, Black Nationalism, and Irish Nationalism? If not please explain why you seem so upset about Jewish Nationalism in particular. Thanks in advance. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-is-a-pseudoscientist-and-anyone-who-follows-him-is-deceived/760555/52 "2016-07-24T17:47:54Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Of course not. I’m arguing that some religious beliefs, even those which are tied to ethics (as in, do good or go to Hell), can be falsified in a reasonable sense of the term and are not beyond what science can reason about. Well, nobody’s really been appealing to religion as a means of formulating a sound ethical system, though, so I’m not really sure what position you’re attacking… > [@](#): > > In short, basing your ethics on eternal reward or punishment can be made to look quite perilous by evidence from neurology that the conscious mind has a purely physical explanation. Something on which, incidentally, Harris would probably disagree with you: [ [QUOTE=Sam Harris] It seems to me that […] an analysis of purely physical processes will never yield a picture of consciousness. [/QUOTE] ](https://www.samharris.org/blog/item/the-mystery-of-consciousness) ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-is-a-pseudoscientist-and-anyone-who-follows-him-is-deceived/760555/53 "2016-07-24T19:41:17Z")
OK, so Sam Harris is kind of a yahoo on that point. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2016, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-is-a-pseudoscientist-and-anyone-who-follows-him-is-deceived/760555/54 "2016-07-24T20:01:02Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > OK, so Sam Harris is kind of a yahoo on that point. Well, I think he has a refreshingly nuanced position on the issue, compared to his simplistic understanding of ethics, and also to the knee-jerk physicalism of most of his New Atheist brethren; but that’s of course a different debate. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2016, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-is-a-pseudoscientist-and-anyone-who-follows-him-is-deceived/760555/55 "2016-07-25T10:30:45Z")
I can’t speak to his scientific track record, but I’m not a fan of his contributions to the political culture. He didn’t coin it, but he helped popularize the “regressive left” concept, which in Orwellian fashion is how imperialists denounce anti-imperialists. There’s also the oddity of seeing a fellow atheist who claims atheism is not a religion arguing for objective morality. In recent years he’s been one of the more successful trojan horses for right wing values into liberal discourse. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2016, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-is-a-pseudoscientist-and-anyone-who-follows-him-is-deceived/760555/56 "2016-07-25T23:13:11Z")
Oh dear god he’s introducing right-wing ideas into our discourse! Burn him at the stake!!! ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2016, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-is-a-pseudoscientist-and-anyone-who-follows-him-is-deceived/760555/57 "2016-07-26T19:54:18Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Oh dear god he’s introducing right-wing ideas into our discourse! > > Burn him at the stake!!! Nah, burning at the stake isn’t very lib. He goes to the gulag, or up against the wall. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2016, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-is-a-pseudoscientist-and-anyone-who-follows-him-is-deceived/760555/58 "2016-07-27T16:57:04Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Liberals and their desire to appear ‘tolerant’ by not even admitting some of the negatives of contemporary Islam is like is pathetic. :rolleyes: Straw liberals. Actual liberals, as has been abundantly attested in all the Islamist-terrorist threads on these boards, readily recognize and denounce the negatives of the many extremist/theocratic/oppressive variants of contemporary Islam. What has the anti-liberals so pissed off is just that liberals refuse to equate extremist/theocratic/oppressive variants of contemporary Islam with the entire Muslim religion as a whole. > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > They are so afraid of being labeled un-PC that they won’t even call a spade a spade. Sure they do. Why the Islamophobes are so annoyed at them is simply because the Islamophobes want to call _every_ implement a spade, whether it’s actually a spade or a rake or a chainsaw, and liberals don’t let them get away with that kind of ignorant overgeneralization. > [@Ibn Warraq](#): > > What do you hate about “Jewish Nationalism” so much? > > Do you also despise Arab Nationalism, German Nationalism, Black Nationalism, and Irish Nationalism? Well, the question here is what _Sam Harris_ thinks about Jewish nationalism. And given that Harris is so staunchly anti-religious, you would expect him to denounce the aspects of Jewish nationalism that are based on religious belief. Which he sometimes does, but half-heartedly: > [@Sam Harris](#): > > I don’t think Israel should exist as a Jewish state. I think it is obscene, irrational and unjustifiable to have a state organized around a religion. So I don’t celebrate the idea that there’s a Jewish homeland in the Middle East. I certainly don’t support any Jewish claims to real estate based on the Bible. […] > > Though I just said that I don’t think Israel should exist as a Jewish state, the justification for such a state is rather easy to find. […] So, if there were going to be a state organized around protecting members of a single religion, it certainly should be a Jewish state. […] > > Again, granted, there’s some percentage of Jews who are animated by their own religious hysteria and their own prophesies. Some are awaiting the Messiah on contested land. Yes, these people are willing to sacrifice the blood of their own children for the glory of God. But, for the most part, they are not representative of the current state of Judaism or the actions of the Israeli government. […] > > What would the Israelis do if they could do what they want? They would live in peace with their neighbors, if they had neighbors who would live in peace with them. They would simply continue to build out their high tech sector and thrive. […] Some might argue that they would do more than this—e.g. steal more Palestinian land. But apart from the influence of Jewish extremism (which I condemn), Israel’s continued appropriation of land has more than a little to do with her security concerns. […] Given that the existence of a Jewish state specifically in the Biblical Land of Israel is fundamentally a consequence of religious belief, I think it’s fair to say that Harris “gives a free pass” to Jewish nationalism much of the time, at least compared to his denunciations of the political consequences of **other** religious beliefs. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-is-a-pseudoscientist-and-anyone-who-follows-him-is-deceived/760555.md?page=2)