# Sam Harris on a world without guns **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 30, 2013, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-on-a-world-without-guns/648808 "2013-01-30T14:06:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-on-a-world-without-guns/648808/1 "2013-01-30T14:06:34Z")
“Like most gun owners, I understand the ethical importance of guns and cannot honestly wish for a world without them. I suspect that sentiment will shock many readers. Wouldn’t any decent person wish for a world without guns? In my view, only someone who doesn’t understand violence could wish for such a world. A world without guns is one in which the most aggressive men can do more or less anything they want. It is a world in which a man with a knife can rape and murder a woman in the presence of a dozen witnesses, and none will find the courage to intervene. There have been cases of prison guards (who generally do not carry guns) helplessly standing by as one of their own was stabbed to death by a lone prisoner armed with an improvised blade. The hesitation of bystanders in these situations makes perfect sense—and “diffusion of responsibility” has little to do with it. The fantasies of many martial artists aside, to go unarmed against a person with a knife is to put oneself in very real peril, regardless of one’s training. The same can be said of attacks involving multiple assailants. A world without guns is a world in which no man, not even a member of Seal Team Six, can reasonably expect to prevail over more than one determined attacker at a time. A world without guns, therefore, is one in which the advantages of youth, size, strength, aggression, and sheer numbers are almost always decisive. Who could be nostalgic for such a world?” > **[Sam Harris | The Riddle of the Gun](https://www.samharris.org/blog/the-riddle-of-the-gun)** > > Fantasists and zealots can be found on both sides of the debate over guns in America. On the one hand, many gun-rights advocates reject even the most sensible restrictions on the sale of weapons to the public. On the other, proponents of stricter gun... So is Sam wrong? Also I find it interesting that one of the worlds most outspoken atheists is pro gun rights. My guess is that he understands, more than most, that his first amendment rights might have to be protected by his second. What say you Der Trihs? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-on-a-world-without-guns/648808/2 "2013-01-30T14:10:53Z")
Plenty of atheists are pro gun rights. For example, me. One can be pro-gun rights, and still advocate for most or all of the measures advocated for by President Obama (or other prominent Democrats). This implication that supporting gun control measures like expanded background checks, magazine size restrictions, etc, means one wants to rid America (or the world) of guns, is nothing more than a straw-man. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-on-a-world-without-guns/648808/3 "2013-01-30T14:28:39Z")
\*Lock me away But allow the N.R.A. Here inside where I hide With my .45 I don’t care what they say I won’t stay In a world without guns\* ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-on-a-world-without-guns/648808/4 "2013-01-30T14:41:47Z")
Strawman. No one is arguing for a world without guns. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-on-a-world-without-guns/648808/5 "2013-01-30T14:46:26Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > …Also I find it interesting that one of the worlds most outspoken atheists is pro gun rights. My guess is that he understands, more than most, that his first amendment rights might have to be protected by his second. … 😕 I have no idea how gun control follows from atheism. I mean, really, what is this statement about? They seem to be completely orthogonal positions. Are you arguing that Christ would advocate for the second amendment? How bizarre. Did Christ say anything either way about personal ownership of, uh, swords (I guess)? Other than he’s bringing one to kick some ass. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-on-a-world-without-guns/648808/6 "2013-01-30T14:58:37Z")
Sam Harris is absolutely correct in that we shouldn’t disarm Seal Team Six. I share his vehement objection to those that would disarm US Special Forces. Otherwise I’m not sure what his point is. There’s a lot of countries where very few people are armed and they’re not dystopian wastelands. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-on-a-world-without-guns/648808/7 "2013-01-30T15:00:12Z")
Not having heard of Sam Harris, I’m not terribly moved by the post. Nobody proposes disarming the police or the military and some of the most vocal supporters of gun control are those that actually deal with armed criminals: the police and mayors. They’re just tired of being outgunned by the bad guys. If he “understands that his First Amendment rights depend on the Second”, then he understands something that just isn’t so. This is one of those things they should put on citizenship tests and if you say that it does, then you aren’t quite ready to participate in democracy. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-on-a-world-without-guns/648808/8 "2013-01-30T15:16:35Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > If he “understands that his First Amendment rights depend on the Second”, then he understands something that just isn’t so. This is one of those things they should put on citizenship tests and if you say that it does, then you aren’t quite ready to participate in democracy. I’ll add “anyone who supports owning any kind of gun ever should be disenfranchised and have their citizenship stripped” to the list of rational, common-sense proposals from the “reasonable discussion” that gun confiscators claim they want. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-on-a-world-without-guns/648808/9 "2013-01-30T15:28:28Z")
I’d like to hear more about this case where a bunch of security guards stood by and watched a fellow officer get stabbed to death by an inmate with an improvised blade. Cite, please? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-on-a-world-without-guns/648808/10 "2013-01-30T15:30:21Z")
BTW, if this is addressed to **Der Trihs** , why didn’t you just send him a PM? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-on-a-world-without-guns/648808/11 "2013-01-30T15:34:00Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > I’ll add “anyone who supports owning any kind of gun ever should be disenfranchised and have their citizenship stripped” to the list of rational, common-sense proposals from the “reasonable discussion” that gun confiscators claim they want. Seems to me that you’re overreacting. The notion that “The Second protects The First” is beyond silly. The Second is neither necessary nor sufficient to protect the First. There are many nations with as much freedom of religion and the press as the US but also have strict gun laws, hence the Second is not necessary. There are many nations where seemingly everybody packs heat but freedom of the press and/or religion are quite restricted, hence the Second is not sufficient. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-on-a-world-without-guns/648808/12 "2013-01-30T15:53:57Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > There’s a lot of countries where very few people are armed and they’re not dystopian wastelands. Have you even seen A Clockwork Orange? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-on-a-world-without-guns/648808/13 "2013-01-30T15:55:30Z")
Um, **Debaser**? That’s a _movie_. 😃 Have you ever been to Britain? ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-on-a-world-without-guns/648808/14 "2013-01-30T15:55:31Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Have you even seen A Clockwork Orange? Have you ever seen Mad Max 2: The Road Warrior? ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-on-a-world-without-guns/648808/15 "2013-01-30T15:56:52Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Sam Harris is absolutely correct in that we shouldn’t disarm Seal Team Six. > [@BobLibDem](#): > > Not having heard of Sam Harris, I’m not terribly moved by the post. Nobody proposes disarming the police or the military and some of the most vocal supporters of gun control are those that actually deal with armed criminals: the police and mayors. They’re just tired of being outgunned by the bad guys. Do you guys really think that the quoted statement in the OP suggests disarming the military or Seal Team Six? Really? If you do, please read it again. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-on-a-world-without-guns/648808/16 "2013-01-30T15:57:55Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Um, **Debaser**? That’s a _movie_. 😃 > > Have you ever been to Britain? Hell no! I don’t want to get attacked by the roaming bands of thugs! * * * It was a joke. Lighten up. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-on-a-world-without-guns/648808/17 "2013-01-30T15:57:56Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Do you guys really think that the quoted statement in the OP suggests disarming the military or Seal Team Six? > > Really? > > If you do, please read it again. And what are the particulars of that prison guard incident? Do you believe it actually happened? ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-on-a-world-without-guns/648808/18 "2013-01-30T15:59:07Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Have you ever seen Mad Max 2: The Road Warrior? Spoiler alert: His gun was empty the whole movie! Which basically makes the entire movie about gun control. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-on-a-world-without-guns/648808/19 "2013-01-30T16:00:18Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Do you guys really think that the quoted statement in the OP suggests disarming the military or Seal Team Six? > > Really? > > If you do, please read it again. Just the opposite. Sam Harris is bravely suggesting that Seal Team Six be allowed to keep their guns. I heartily support this bold statement. In addition, little girls should be allowed to keep their dolls, and Jews should be allowed to keep their Torahs. I know that such boldness can be dangerous, but I stand firm on these principles. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-on-a-world-without-guns/648808/20 "2013-01-30T16:01:48Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Do you guys really think that the quoted statement in the OP suggests disarming the military or Seal Team Six? > > Really? > > If you do, please read it again. Uh, that’s how I read it. Twice. > [@](#): > > A world without guns is a world in which no man, not even a member of Seal Team Six, can reasonably expect to prevail over more than one determined attacker at a time [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-on-a-world-without-guns/648808.md?page=2)