# Sam Harris on a world without guns **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 30, 2013, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-on-a-world-without-guns/648808 "2013-01-30T14:06:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-on-a-world-without-guns/648808/41 "2013-01-30T19:23:42Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It does remind me of the arguments certain believers make against atheism; that without belief in God/guns everyone will turn into a rampaging homicidal maniac. I’m an atheist and I’d agree with part of that sentiment. Not “everyone” but I truly believe that without their faith in God and fear of punishment/not getting into heaven I think that there would be a lot of people that would be a lot less nice than they are now. Its kind of scary to think about. Some people need a reason to be good people. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-on-a-world-without-guns/648808/42 "2013-01-30T19:24:07Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > There’s a lot of countries where very few people are armed and they’re not dystopian wastelands. Neither do they appear to be places where “advantages of youth, size, strength, aggression, and sheer numbers are almost always decisive.” ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-on-a-world-without-guns/648808/43 "2013-01-30T19:29:44Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > I’m an atheist and I’d agree with part of that sentiment. Not “everyone” but I truly believe that without their faith in God and fear of punishment/not getting into heaven I think that there would be a lot of people that would be a lot less nice than they are now. Except that strong religious belief correlates with higher homicide rates, not lower ones. Religion doesn’t make people more moral, it makes them less. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-on-a-world-without-guns/648808/44 "2013-01-30T19:33:52Z")
We don’t have to imagine a world without guns. There was a time in history when that was the case for real. I don’t remember reading about nonstop rapes in the streets of Athens and Rome in ancient times. Did that happen? Maybe my history book didn’t cover that part. Do big, burly men rape whoever they want as long they know everyone else is unarmed and smaller than them? A chair to his head would be pretty effective at making him stop. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-on-a-world-without-guns/648808/45 "2013-01-30T19:34:32Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > If there were no guns I think that crime would start to increase. Prove it. We’ve already tried it your way for a long time. Let’s put in a 50 year ban on guns to test that theory. In 2063, it’ll expire, and we can compare crime rates. Deal? 😃 > [@Debaser](#): > > Like, you know, all of the violent criminals that we already have? This statement seems to imply that there aren’t any people that do have a propensity for violent crime that would like to have unarmed victims. Criminals do exist, you know, and many of them are violent. This statement assumes there aren’t easy places where one can go to find unarmed criminals. Every government building, and I don’t mean the ones with armed guards like courthouses, I mean ones like civic centers, most schools, community centers, have no security and everyone’s unarmed. Since there are not daily rampages by criminals in these places, that proves that without guns, people are still generally law-abiding and not many will take a ban on guns as some kind of criminal utopia. Have some pepper spray, or a stun gun. You can still defend yourself > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It does remind me of the arguments certain believers make against atheism; that without belief in God/guns everyone will turn into a rampaging homicidal maniac. That speaks more about those people, that they only believe because of god, and if there was no god then it is they who would go crazy. I’m atheist and disagree with many of the morals this society has embedded. But if tomorrow all laws against murder were eliminated, I wouldn’t go murder someone as my first deed. I’d be more worried that people would murder me ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-on-a-world-without-guns/648808/46 "2013-01-30T19:48:19Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > If there were no guns I think that crime would start to increase. Why? It’s not that bad, now, in unarmed societies like the UK or Japan. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-on-a-world-without-guns/648808/47 "2013-01-30T19:48:54Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > Do big, burly men rape whoever they want as long they know everyone else is unarmed and smaller than them? Hide yo’ slave, hide yo’ donkey! ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-on-a-world-without-guns/648808/48 "2013-01-30T19:53:07Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > My guess is that he understands, more than most, that his first amendment rights might have to be protected by his second. What say you Der Trihs? Rather than guessing, you could have read the article you linked, in which he makes it clear that he’s not in favor of guns as a defense against political tyranny, but for personal self defense against criminals until such time as the police can arrive: > [@Sam Harris](#): > > I have always wanted to be able to protect myself and my family, and I have never had any illusions about how quickly the police can respond when called. I have expressed my views on self-defense elsewhere. Suffice it to say, if a person enters your home for the purpose of harming you, you cannot reasonably expect the police to arrive in time to stop him. This is not the fault of the police—it is a problem of physics. > > \ > > In fact, it can be easily argued that original intent of the Second Amendment had nothing to do with the right of self-defense—which remains the ethical case to be made for owning a firearm. > > \ > > Given the changes that have occurred in our military, and even in our politics, the idea that a few pistols and an AR 15 in every home constitutes a necessary bulwark against totalitarianism is fairly ridiculous. His support for guns clearly has nothing to do with the second amendment, or with using guns to protect ones Constitutional rights. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-on-a-world-without-guns/648808/49 "2013-01-30T19:57:31Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > Rather than guessing, you could have read the article you linked, in which he makes it clear that he’s not in favor of guns as a defense against political tyranny, but for personal self defense against criminals until such time as the police can arrive: > > His support for guns clearly has nothing to do with the second amendment, or with using guns to protect ones Constitutional rights. He’s right about the purpose of the Amendment; the idea that a basic biological function like preserving the life of oneself or one’s family needed to be guaranteed by law seemed absurd until a few decades ago. You might as well ask why there’s no amendment guaranteeing the right to breathe; anyone who would possibly question it is obviously not capable of thought. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Why? It’s not that bad, now, in unarmed societies like the UK or Japan. The UK has far worse crime (as distinguished from murder) than the US, and Japan has a society so repressive that suicide is a national pasttime and essentially no checks on police or prosecutor behavior. This is like the stupid thing from the day of Newtown where people were crowing about the knife attack on a Chinese school not causing any fatalities. Yeah, we can be like those places, if you want to really BE like those places. If you think gun laws are the only component of a social structure, you’re incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-on-a-world-without-guns/648808/50 "2013-01-30T20:20:54Z")
Put me down for another who has no idea who Sam Harris is but just from this quote he looks pretty foolish. Regardless of what tools or weapons are available someone is going to have the advantage when it comes to violence. Guns don’t lessen that advantage, they increase it. 2 guys with clubs can enter a nightclub and beat a few people to death but 2 guys with guns can kill dozens. Obviously progun people imagine armed individuals defending themselves by shooting back. But again the increased lethality of firearms works against the progun argument. Heroic defenders with their own clubs aren’t likely to mistakenly beat bystanders to death but could well shoot them by accident if they had guns. Gun proponents would do well to avoid scenarios involving an unarmed populace. Because in a world without\* guns the bad guys don’t have guns either and there goes the best justification for allowing the good guys to have such dangerous tools. \*Here the term “without” is used to mean “some are without but some are not” with the initial “some” seeming to refer to agents of the government and the latter “some” to private individuals. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-on-a-world-without-guns/648808/51 "2013-01-30T21:21:12Z")
> [@2sense](#): > > Put me down for another who has no idea who Sam Harris is but just from this quote he looks pretty foolish. [He’s a neuroscientist.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Harris_(author)) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-on-a-world-without-guns/648808/52 "2013-01-30T21:22:14Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > The UK has far worse crime (as distinguished from murder) than the US . . . Cite, please. > [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > . . . and Japan has a society so repressive that suicide is a national pasttime and essentially no checks on police or prosecutor behavior. Likewise. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-on-a-world-without-guns/648808/53 "2013-01-30T21:39:46Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > The UK has far worse crime (as distinguished from murder) than the US, and Japan has a society so repressive that suicide is a national pasttime and essentially no checks on police or prosecutor behavior. This is like the stupid thing from the day of Newtown where people were crowing about the knife attack on a Chinese school not causing any fatalities. Yeah, we can be like those places, if you want to really BE like those places. If you think gun laws are the only component of a social structure, you’re incorrect. This [link](http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri-crime-total-crimes)has the US leading the UK almost 2:1 for total crimes. By [intentional homicide](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate)the US leads the UK 4:1. Just for fun the [suicide by firearm](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate) has the US barely trailing Montenegro for the lead (Go USA), but the US does lead the UK by 37:1 (and Japan at 105:1) ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-on-a-world-without-guns/648808/54 "2013-01-30T23:15:45Z")
I understand that **Robot** didn’t specify crime _rate_, but total crimes is pretty misleading statistic. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-on-a-world-without-guns/648808/55 "2013-01-30T23:16:38Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Hide yo’ slave, hide yo’ donkey! 'Cause they raping everybody out here! ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-on-a-world-without-guns/648808/56 "2013-01-30T23:51:09Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Cite, please. It’s notoriously difficult to compare crime statistics among countries because crimes are sometimes defined differently in different places and some countries count and report more thoroughly than others. Nonetheless there are international comparisons such as [this one](http://www.civitas.org.uk/crime/crime_stats_oecdjan2012.pdf). It shows that the United States is well above the median crime rate in all the categories listed: murder, rape, assault, homicide, and vehicle theft. If our permissive gun laws actually prevented crime, one would expected the opposite to be true. Certainly nothing justifies **Condescending Robot’s** claim that the the UK has far worse crime overall. In most categories the UK and the USA are pretty similar. In murder, the USA is much worse. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-on-a-world-without-guns/648808/57 "2013-01-31T00:03:23Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > So is Sam wrong? > > Also I find it interesting that one of the worlds most outspoken atheists is pro gun rights. My guess is that he understands, more than most, that his first amendment rights might have to be protected by his second. What say you Der Trihs? Sounds like this should have either been a PM or a Pit thread. Why are you boring me with your rabble? ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-on-a-world-without-guns/648808/58 "2013-01-31T00:40:23Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > The only reason he mentions Seal Team Six is to make the point that even the toughest of trained killers cannot fend off multiple attackers at once. He’s not making any point about disarming the military. > . Perhaps not, but give mrAru and myself our choice of location, a chainsaw and some tools, and a weeks lead time and nobody would survive the climb up to a cave I know of and there wouldn’t be a gun involved. Though I wouldn’t swear that I wouldn’t have my [wrist rocket](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slingshot) and a bag of ball bearings…and those deadfall traps are pretty effective. Look, if someone wants to kill someone, it can be tricky stopping it. All gunpowder does is make it louder and from a bit further out. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-on-a-world-without-guns/648808/59 "2013-01-31T01:09:45Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > It’s notoriously difficult to compare crime statistics among countries because crimes are sometimes defined differently in different places and some countries count and report more thoroughly than others. Nonetheless there are international comparisons such as [this one](http://www.civitas.org.uk/crime/crime_stats_oecdjan2012.pdf). It shows that the United States is well above the median crime rate in all the categories listed: murder, rape, assault, homicide, and vehicle theft. If our permissive gun laws actually prevented crime, one would expected the opposite to be true. Certainly nothing justifies **Condescending Robot’s** claim that the the UK has far worse crime overall. In most categories the UK and the USA are pretty similar. In murder, the USA is much worse. [I dispute your assertion and offer this: “Choose Your Own Crime Stats.”](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ooa98FHuaU0&feature=share) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-on-a-world-without-guns/648808/60 "2013-01-31T01:27:40Z")
Wait, so a Navy Seal stands no chance against even two opponents, but a dozen onlookers can’t stop a single rapist? I had no idea that rapists were so superhuman. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-on-a-world-without-guns/648808.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-harris-on-a-world-without-guns/648808.md?page=4)