# SAM-s on 9/11 **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 3, 2004, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-s-on-9-11/258155 "2004-08-03T16:21:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-s-on-9-11/258155/21 "2004-08-04T04:06:27Z")
> [@](#): > > Furthermore, I can neither confirm nor deny the existence of Stinger Missiles and trained security personnel atop the White House during this time either (mostly because I do not know for sure), but again, dollars, doughnuts. > > The Stinger’s effective range is only 8km (publicized), so there is not a lot of reaction time. > > UncleBill > Major, USMCR > Former Stinger Missile Officer Also I doubt that the small warhead of a Stinger would be able to down a commercial jetliner before it impacted the building. If they did exist pre-9/11 (I think they did) the Stinger-equiped Secret Service agents were for protection against a small, Cessna type suicide plane maybe packed with explosives. How I long for those days… ---
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-s-on-9-11/258155/22 "2004-08-04T04:24:35Z")
**Hail Ants** , I was thinking of posting the same type of entry, but then I did the math. At the outer range of the Stinger the inbound plane (at 400 mph) is still over 45 seconds away (if I did the math right), so the detonation at one engine may indeed alter the flight path, or seeing the missile screaming toward them (it leaves quite the smoke trail) may cause a pilot to flinch and divert, etc… etc… since I assume the altitude would be quite low, the chances of a “miss” may be worth taking the shot. “Miss”, of course, means missing the intended target and splattering a few blocks of downtown DC or Alexandria, VA in the process. ---
**Author:** ![nonpolar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/3da27b/32.png) [@nonpolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nonpolar)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-s-on-9-11/258155/23 "2004-08-04T04:26:30Z")
So there were missiles on top of WH. right? During Clinton administration some guy crashed small plane into WH, and from that time on they have missiles on top of WH. Yes, one missile might not shot big jet, but few missiles launched at once can. ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-s-on-9-11/258155/24 "2004-08-04T04:50:43Z")
> [@](#): > > During Clinton administration some guy crashed small plane into WH, and from that time on they have missiles on top of WH. I think they’ve been around since before even that. So why weren’t they used then? you might ask. For one thing, I don’t think the President was actually in the WH when that happened. Also I don’t think that guy was really doing a suicide run to kill Clinton. I think he may have been trying to land on the WH lawn to make some kind of political statement. There were bleachers setup (which aren’t normally there) which he impacted and then cartwheeled into the building itself. Also, the Secret Service are not (or were not at least) over anxious to use them. Obviously it would be a huge scandal if an innocent, off-course plane were shot down. Even if it were a terrorist its still not gonna be great PR when it crashes and explodes in some downtown DC neighborhood. > [@](#): > > the chances of a “miss” may be worth taking the shot. IMO if the fourth plane had made it to the WH I don’t doubt that the agents would have fired upon it. A widebody jet flying low towards the WH like that? Pretty much a 100% chance its a terrorist attack. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-s-on-9-11/258155/25 "2004-08-04T10:05:54Z")
> [@UncleBill](#): > > I have a very different opinion on this subject. They were not searching and scanning with the ready round on their shoulders, but I am very confident they were there. I do not know for a fact, but I would LOVE to hear your position that makes you state that they were not there. Do you have a connection with the Secret Service? No, but I’ve seen aerial photos of the top of the Whitehouse, and if they were there they were pretty darn well hidden. Everyone is _so sure_ there have been missles/guns up there for years, but there was no word from official sources. Sure, I could see putting sharpshooters up there, but can _you_ prove there _were_ missles there? NOW the administration makes no bones about it - there are missiles up there. Now I believe it. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-s-on-9-11/258155/26 "2004-08-04T10:11:36Z")
> [@UncleBill](#): > > **Hail Ants** , I was thinking of posting the same type of entry, but then I did the math. At the outer range of the Stinger the inbound plane (at 400 mph) is still over 45 seconds away (if I did the math right), so the detonation at one engine may indeed alter the flight path, or seeing the missile screaming toward them (it leaves quite the smoke trail) may cause a pilot to flinch and divert, etc… etc… since I assume the altitude would be quite low, the chances of a “miss” may be worth taking the shot. > > “Miss”, of course, means missing the intended target and splattering a few blocks of downtown DC or Alexandria, VA in the process. Or maybe not. A couple of airplanes have been hit by those shoulder-launched SAM’s going in and out of the Bagdad airport, including at least one direct hit on an engine. Every single one of them made a controlled landing with no one aboard hurt. Granted, those were fully trained pilots, not some Bad Guys with just enough training to keep the nose pointed toward the target, but it’s clear that you can’t assume a single SAM is going to bring down something like an airliner. ---
**Author:** ![TeaElle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@TeaElle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TeaElle)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-s-on-9-11/258155/27 "2004-08-04T10:45:42Z")
What would’ve been the on the ground casualty rate associated with blowing up a fully fueled passenger jet over a major metropolitan area? ---
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-s-on-9-11/258155/28 "2004-08-04T12:05:26Z")
**Broomstick** , you’ll note I couched everything I said that I did not have firm knowledge about with “maybe”, “assume”, “I don’t know for a fact” and other such text. This is because I do not know these things for a fact, so I do not present them as facts, unlike statements such as > [@](#): > > _Broomstick_ > Now there are - there weren’t before September 11. It wasn’t seen as necessary. Please note this is GQ, and factual statements such as your can be easily confused as factual statement in this factual forum, when they are merely based on looking at a photo and NOT seeing missiles. Do you know what the missile case looks like? Do you know how big a box needs to be to put the missile case inside it? Are there any rooms or structures on top of the White House that could house a missile case? I am not at all sure how you got the impression that > [@](#): > > Everyone is so _sure_ there have been missles/guns up there for years, but there was no word from official sources. Are you are aware that security measures at the White House are NEVER discussed by the White House? And it would be SERIOUSLY tipping their hat if Stingers were laying out in the open when the photo was taken? Of COURSE they are well hidden! Please bone up on reading comprehension and writing clarity. During the time I was in the Marine Corps (G.H.W. Bush Administration), there was one full-sized Stinger Moving Target Simulator on the East Coast, and it was at my battalion at MCAS Cherry Point, NC. I do know for a fact we have people come through that MTS who were not Marines, Army, or Navy, so I do know that SOME non-military government folks were well trained in the use of this missile, but it was not my position to know who they were. Could have been CIA, could have been Secret Service, could have been National Park Rangers for all I know, but the indications were very strong they were Secret Service. BUT I DO NOT KNOW THIS AS A FACT, SO I DO PRESENT IT AS SUCH. ---
**Author:** ![rngadam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/97f17d/32.png) [@rngadam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rngadam)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-s-on-9-11/258155/29 "2004-08-04T13:18:04Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > I hope this isn’t aimed at a tin foil hat so I’ll answer it truthfully. The Patriot is a very effective anti aircraft missile. So effective in fact that it will more often then not shoot non-threatening friendlies! [http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/02/19/60minutes/main601241.shtml](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/02/19/60minutes/main601241.shtml) > [@](#): > > And they kept claiming success until 2001, when the Pentagon finally admitted the Patriot hadn’t worked in the First Gulf War. By then, the Patriot had an even more disturbing problem. On the test range, it kept targeting friendly planes. [http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2004/040205-patriot-shootdown.htm](http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2004/040205-patriot-shootdown.htm) > [@](#): > > Until now, the circumstances of the Patriot fratricide that killed 30-year-old Navy Lieutenant Nathan White of Abilene, Texas on April 2nd of last year have been cloaked in the secrecy of an Army investigation. So has the March 2003 Patriot Missile downing of a British RAF Tornado Bomber ten days earlier. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-s-on-9-11/258155/30 "2004-08-04T13:19:27Z")
> [@UncleBill](#): > > On September 10, 2001, I would bet dollars to doughnuts that the ONLY military SAM units which were equipped to shoot down ANYTHING were on specific military missile ranges (White Sands, Onslow Beach) on VERY few military bases ONLY if they happened to have a live fire shoot scheduled weeks in advance. The US did NOT maintain crews with live missiles set up at strategic locations to defend our skies at a moment’s notice. Live missiles are kept in the armory, not on the launchers, not at the firing unit, when military units are stateside (still speaking of Sept 10 and before here). The reaction time to get the missiles out of storage and ready is greater than the time available that day by several orders of magnitude. Hope you’ve got some dollars. 😉 > [@](#): > > [The Day Before Everything Changed, President Bush Touched Locals’ Lives > by Tom Bayles > The Sarasota Herald-Tribune > September 10, 2002](http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline/2002/sarasotaheraldtribune091002.html) > > Across Sarasota Bay, at Booker Elementary, Principal Gwendolyn Tose- Rigell watched as Secret Service agents “gently took over” her campus the morning of Sept. 6. > > Tose-Rigell had been called by White House officials five weeks earlier and told that Bush might come to Sarasota to talk to students about reading. > > The principal was interviewed by White House staffers, then by an official at the Florida Department of Education. > > Tose-Rigell, too, was sworn to secrecy. She was told “a couple of people” in an advance team would show up. > > “Instead of a couple of people, it was an entourage,” she said. “The kids were saying, ‘Who are all those men in black?’” > > The 150 parents, students and teachers invited to the Sept. 11 event had to attend a meeting at the school with Bush staff two days before it. They were told where to stand, what to do and what not to do. > > Workers rearranged the school’s library to better accommodate lighting for television cameras. A White House stage artist, not teachers or students, designed the childish decorations that were eventually put on the wall behind the president. > > At the Colony, the Secret Service was getting everything secured for when the president arrived on Sept. 10. That included snipers and **surface-to-air missiles on the roof** and the Coast Guard patrolling just offshore. > > Everything was going perfectly. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-s-on-9-11/258155/31 "2004-08-04T13:39:27Z")
I’ll take your doughnuts. I said MILITARY SAM units. The Secret Service is not military. But thank you for the link, it supports my opinion that the Secret Service was trained and equiped with Stingers, and if they used them on a visit to Sarasota before the attacks, it follows logically that they would be pre-positioned in a good firing position at the White House, which would ideally be the roof. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-s-on-9-11/258155/32 "2004-08-04T13:47:16Z")
Although upon review I see is left the word “military” out later in that post when I said > [@](#): > > The US did NOT maintain crews with live missiles set up at strategic locations to defend our skies at a moment’s notice. I was still THINKING military, but that what I wrote can certainly be taken as ALL United States folks, which I suspect, and now believe more strongly, since it seems the Secret Sevice does have them. We can split the doughnuts, how’s that? ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-s-on-9-11/258155/33 "2004-08-04T13:56:39Z")
> [@UncleBill](#): > > We can split the doughnuts, how’s that? No problemo. > [@UncleBill](#): > > But thank you for the link, it supports my opinion that the Secret Service was trained and equiped with Stingers, and if they used them on **a visit to Sarasota before the attacks** , it follows logically that they would be pre-positioned in a good firing position at the White House, which would ideally be the roof. I’m not quite sure whether you picked up on the date or not. It wasn’t just any old visit to Sarasota, it was the day before the attacks. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-s-on-9-11/258155/34 "2004-08-04T14:16:51Z")
Oh, I saw the date, and I had a tinfoil hat collection, I’d be screaming that they had advanced warning of the attacks, and all that foaming at the mouth stuff. But I’ll take it as an indication of the defenses used in the pre-attack period, not just the day before. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-s-on-9-11/258155/35 "2004-08-04T14:37:16Z")
And I retract my request of **Broomstick** to work on writing clarity. My record of typos and leaving out words that can change the meaning of a sentence leaves me in no position to say this. ---
**Author:** ![nonpolar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/3da27b/32.png) [@nonpolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nonpolar)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-s-on-9-11/258155/36 "2004-08-04T22:06:13Z")
Misilles on top of WH ,that is nothing! I heard from a friend who knows guy, and that guy heard that there is force field around WH!Just like force field on Star Trek Enterprize! Incredible what our scientists can do. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2004, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-s-on-9-11/258155/37 "2004-08-05T10:16:50Z")
> [@TeaElle](#): > > What would’ve been the on the ground casualty rate associated with blowing up a fully fueled passenger jet over a major metropolitan area? Judging from past accidents where airliners have crashed into urban areas - in fact, just that happened in NYC in November of 2001, flight 587, the Airbus where the vertical stabilizer snapped off after flying through the wake of a 757 - the damage would probably be less than what occurs from hitting something like the WTC or Pentagon directly. In the past, when a jet has broken up above a city and the pieces fall down the typical result is few people on the ground are killed and several buildings burn down. Usually there are several other smaller fires from flamming debris that do less damage and are quickly controlled. But then, random chance means it’s more likely a crashing plane will hit something smaller than the WTC. It would certainly be conceivable that a city block or three could be utterly devastated. If it crashed into, say, an oil refinery or petroleum storage depot/tank farm, though, the results could be devastating. I other words, a lot depnds on what it lands on. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2004, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-s-on-9-11/258155/38 "2004-08-05T10:20:58Z")
> [@nonpolar](#): > > Misilles on top of WH ,that is nothing! > I heard from a friend who knows guy, and that guy heard that there is force field around WH!Just like force field on Star Trek Enterprize! Incredible what our scientists can do. Not to mention our chemists. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2004, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-s-on-9-11/258155/39 "2004-08-05T10:24:55Z")
**UncleBill** , I don’t think there’s a civilian out here that could prove, one way or another, that there either were or were not missles on the White House roof prior to 9/11. Sure, it’s _logical_ to have some sort of defense up there, but that doesn’t _prove_ it exists. I mean, sure, they could have disguised something as air conditioning units or something… or maybe those ARE air conditioning units. NOW it’s clear there’s something up there, before it wasn’t. Either way, the Secret Service isn’t talking - uncertainty works in their favor in this case, with people inventing far more elaborate defenses than might actually be present. Or never guessing correctly what’s there. Not worth arguing about more than that. ---
**Author:** ![nonpolar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/3da27b/32.png) [@nonpolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nonpolar)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2004, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-s-on-9-11/258155/40 "2004-08-05T15:49:22Z")
Misilles don’t have to be right on top of WH ,they might be concealled in some other place for example in some statue or underwater in that pond in front of WH. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-s-on-9-11/258155.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-s-on-9-11/258155.md?page=3)