# Sam Stone believes Trump's tweets **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2020, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-believes-trumps-tweets/922633 "2020-10-10T13:47:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2020, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-believes-trumps-tweets/922633/263 "2020-10-18T21:14:09Z")
No, actually I have said I was wrong several times. And I actually had that ‘weenie’ mea culpa in my post buffer ready to send when the thread was closed. I feel no obligation to apologize here in the pit, after that thread was closed for the number of personal insults against me. At this point, you’ve forfeited that for being fucking assholes who should be ashamed of yourselves. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2020, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-believes-trumps-tweets/922633/264 "2020-10-18T21:16:23Z")
I largely agree with Sam’s general critique of the Dope. It’s just too bad that he used this thread (which relied on Trump telling the truth) to voice it. Plenty of Dopers have said things equally as stupid but given the political layout of members they usually get by unscathed. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2020, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-believes-trumps-tweets/922633/265 "2020-10-18T21:18:40Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > No, actually I have said I was wrong several times. Nearly every time–if not every time–you’ve said you were wrong, you’ve qualified that by saying, “LOOK AT ALL THESE OTHER PEOPLE WHO WERE WRONG!” > [@](#): > > I feel no obligation to apologize here in the pit, after that thread was closed for the number of personal insults against me. At this point, you’ve forfeited that for being fucking assholes who should be ashamed of yourselves. Cool cool cool; your lack of integrity is on display for all to see. To suggest that WE should be ashamed of ourselves for correctly calling out your foolishness, and that this is justification for your refusal to give an unqualified _mea culpa_ (not an apology, an unqualified admission that you were wrong), tells us a lot about you, if we didn’t already know it. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2020, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-believes-trumps-tweets/922633/266 "2020-10-18T21:18:53Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > The rest of my message went on to attempt to start a conversation on what full declassification might mean IF TRUE. > > Is this the part where I get to call you a liar and demand a ritual apology? I’m new to this whole struggle session thing. What [Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness) said. And read it again, I said you were **mistaken** not that you lied. And very quickly it was already known that Trump did not tell the truth. No ifs about it. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2020, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-believes-trumps-tweets/922633/267 "2020-10-18T21:21:59Z")
So there’s enough room in the ‘aquarium’ for Sam and Octopus? Good to know, good to know. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2020, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-believes-trumps-tweets/922633/268 "2020-10-18T21:27:40Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > I largely agree with Sam’s general critique of the Dope. It’s just too bad that he used this thread (which relied on Trump telling the truth) to voice it. Plenty of Dopers have said things equally as stupid but given the political layout of members they usually get by unscathed. Not really, even **Irish\_Girl** spanked me years ago for believing the most stupid thing, that Guinness beer was British. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2020, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-believes-trumps-tweets/922633/269 "2020-10-18T21:32:32Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > Seriously, why is it when conservatives are called for their lies and mistakes, they assume that a cabal of liberals get together in secret and scheme on ways to destroy them? As I said elsewhere, there’s an obvious reason for it: > [@Trolls R Us redux \[Now the argument clinic\]](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-redux-now-the-argument-clinic/913349/1446): > > …[I]f you frame all criticism of your and other right-wing arguments in terms of “They’re just saying that because of blatant partisan hatred”, it’s all a win for you. You get to: > > 1. Call everyone a “hivemind”; > 2. Claim persecution; and > 3. Avoid all accountability for your own statements. It’s probably also relevant that _this is how many conservatives operate_ - the new partisan narratives get parroted on relevant right-wing media and social media sites, and suddenly they’re all repeating the same lines virtually verbatim. Left-wingers don’t really operate like this (for better or worse); the “herding cats” analogy tends to apply (as well as the “circular firing squad” one). ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2020, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-believes-trumps-tweets/922633/270 "2020-10-18T21:34:10Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Again, the reason I posted that one was because A) It seemed like even Trump wouldn’t lie about something he claimed to have just done and would be easily checkable, and b) my due diligence found the same tweet being reported on by numerous mainstream media outlets including Reuters. The difference is that mainstream media outlets, for better or worse, are obligated to take Trump and the things he says seriously. To do otherwise would be held up as evidence of bias. You and I are under no such obligation. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2020, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-believes-trumps-tweets/922633/271 "2020-10-18T21:54:10Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > I largely agree with Sam’s general critique of the Dope. It’s just too bad that he used this thread (which relied on Trump telling the truth) to voice it. One more thing, -actually several, but this example will do- one of the biggest and most serious calumnies was believed and pressed by Sam Stone on several occasions and AFAIK he never admitted how wrong he was after me and others pointed at the evidence. [He posted several times the fake meme that paints the writer of “Silent Spring”, Rachel Carson, as a murderer. (and hence all environmentalists) Because of the ban of DDT allegedly caused millions of deaths, when that was not the case, not only it was not banned outside the USA, but it was caused also by one item that many conservatives refuse to believe: **evolution**. It was the reason for the mosquitoes becoming immune to DDT.](https://e360.yale.edu/features/rachel_carsons_critics_keep_on_but_she_told_truth_about_ddt) [There was never an acknowledgement from Sam of how wrong that was](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/another-worst-thread-20th-century-woman/306354/9), and never a hint about what was his source then. And about ten years after that, I pointed at his error again when he posted that in a more recent and different thread, to no avail. ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2020, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-believes-trumps-tweets/922633/272 "2020-10-18T23:00:37Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > The rest of my message went on to attempt to start a conversation on what full declassification might mean IF TRUE. So what have you learned? That Trump’s tweets are rarely true? For somebody who allegedly doesn’t support Trump, you sure are giving him one yuge benefit of a doubt. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-believes-trumps-tweets/922633/273 "2020-10-19T00:01:59Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Because this board has reached a critical mass of lefties who have made it their mission to attack, ridicule, and essentially run off anyone who doesn’t think like they do. It’s rather pathetic, and it’s eventually going to kill this message board. The SDMB: Being killed by liberal bias since 2001 ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-believes-trumps-tweets/922633/274 "2020-10-19T00:19:36Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > > [@Lobohan](#): > > > > “GMOs are bad” is distributed pretty evenly among the political spectrum. It’s American stupidity, not liberal stupidity: > > From the report cited: > > > [@](#): > > > > **Effects on the environment.** The use of insect-resistant or herbicide-resistant crops did not reduce the overall diversity of plant and insect life on farms, and sometimes insect-resistant crops resulted in increased insect diversity, the report says. While gene flow – the transfer of genes from a GE crop to a wild relative species – has occurred, no examples have demonstrated an adverse environmental effect from this transfer. Overall, the committee found no conclusive evidence of cause-and-effect relationships between GE crops and environmental problems. **However, the complex nature of assessing long-term environmental changes often made it difficult to reach definitive conclusions.** > > (Emphasis added). > > I agree that in the past decade, the question of whether GMOs damage human health has been settled in a way that it was decidedly not settled in the mid-nineties, and people should keep up with modern science. However, the question of the effects of specific GMOs on the environment is NOT under scientific consensus. As for Lobohan’s comment: True\* - except the point I was making was that declaring the Left to be free of anti-science nonsense was not a tenable position. Beyond GMOs, we could also cite the example of vaccination - where mindless opposition is distributed fairly equally among “progressives” and conservatives.\*\* Waving one’s arms and saying (to quote Judy Tenuta) “It could happen!” is not exactly a devastating rejoinder to evidence of genetically-modified crops non-harm to the environment. One could also point out that transfer of genetic material between related species has occurred naturally many times (i.e. between plants) without harm, and that objections raised vs. GMO crops concerning the environment apply equally or more so to non-GMO crops. \*however, _organized opposition_ to genetic modification technology is typically a feature of left-leaning groups. It’s not the Federalist Society that’s been helping hold up the approval of golden rice (to prevent malnutrition, blindness and death), but instead organizations like Greenpeace. \*\*although catering to or embracing antivax ideology is far more common among right-wing _politicians_ than among those on the Left. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-believes-trumps-tweets/922633/275 "2020-10-19T00:44:22Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > The rest of my message went on to attempt to start a conversation on what full declassification might mean IF TRUE. This should have tipped you off. The rest of your message contained nonsense that directly contradicted reality. This could be a great example of a reductio ad absurdum… If Trump’s Tweet is true then x, y, and z. Since x, y, and z are clearly and obviously at odds with reality, we know Trump’s Tweet is false. Quod erat demonstrandum. The problem here is not that you believed Trump’s Tweet, it’s your failure to recognize that x, y, and z are absurd. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-believes-trumps-tweets/922633/276 "2020-10-19T00:49:58Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > This could be a great example of a reductio ad absurdum… I thought it was a great example of a minimal effort at JAQing off. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-believes-trumps-tweets/922633/277 "2020-10-19T01:10:18Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Waving one’s arms and saying (to quote Judy Tenuta) “It could happen!” is not exactly a devastating rejoinder to evidence of genetically-modified crops non-harm to the environment. One could also point out that transfer of genetic material between related species has occurred naturally many times (i.e. between plants) without harm, and that objections raised vs. GMO crops concerning the environment apply equally or more so to non-GMO crops. That would be a dumb thing to point out, though, because that interspecies transfer of genes happens slowly enough that ecosystems adjust to each one as they happen; and also, “harm” isn’t really a valid concept in nature, where shit gets disturbed like crazy every now and then, and if something upends everything, that’s nature for ya. When we’re introducing a new industrial chemical, there are regulations that govern its introduction and use. When we introduce a new pharmaceutical, there are similar regulations. It may (may!) make sense to have similar regulations around the introduction of certain sorts of GMOs. As long as we lack a scientific consensus about the long-term environmental changes caused by GMOs, I’d be in favor of such regulations around, say, a GMO that causes plants to manufacture insecticides not previously manufactured by plants; and I wouldn’t be in favor of such regulations around, say, a GMO that causes tomatoes to contain heightened levels of vitamin C. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-believes-trumps-tweets/922633/278 "2020-10-19T01:20:03Z")
Two additions: 1. I paid a lot of attention to GMOs in the mid-nineties, and hardly any since then; as the science has found them generally harmless, I’ve lost track of the state of science and regulation. I’m perfectly open to facts that’d change my mind on what levels of regulation are appropriate, although of course if someone’s an asshole about it I won’t be much open to anything they say. 2. I know this is a hijack, but Sam’s made his position (YOURE A MEANIE SO IM NOT A WEENIE) pretty clear, so I don’t much care about that unless others do. 3. Yeah, there are definitely anti-science folks out there who adopt very one-size-fits-all antipathic positions toward GMOs. And yeah, it looks to me like they’re disproportionately on the left. And no, the claims that they’re causing famine aren’t remotely accurate, and indeed are about as anti-facts as the zealots against GMOs are; nobody who makes any such claim has any high ground to stand on. 4. I know it’s four, not two. Like I said, I’m open to changing my mind :). ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-believes-trumps-tweets/922633/279 "2020-10-19T01:25:42Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > \*however, _organized opposition_ to genetic modification technology is typically a feature of left-leaning groups. It’s not the Federalist Society that’s been helping hold up the approval of golden rice (to prevent malnutrition, blindness and death), but instead organizations like Greenpeace. > \*\*although catering to or embracing antivax ideology is far more common among right-wing _politicians_ than among those on the Left. Some nits there, although I do agree that a few from the left are dunderheads on that. In a previous discussion I found that an influential anti GMO group proudly mentioned in their website that many conservatives supported their positions. This is because like with the nuclear issue, super-majorities come out in polls also being against GMO or supporters of labeling. Again, that points to a big mess of Republicans that also follow NIMBY about GMOs. As for the antivaxxers, I have to report that the weaponization of anti-science (accelerated by Trump) leads to anti-science conspiracy conservatives to not just eat one conspiracy, the anti-science machinery in place has turned the tobacco and cancer connection, evolution, climate change and other subjects into conspiracies with no value for them. Vaccination is being put into that machine as we speak, and you are correct about anti vaxxers being more common now among right wing politicians. That is one of the first steps on turning what it was a reprehensible minority bipartisan issue into a litmus test for being a Republican. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-believes-trumps-tweets/922633/280 "2020-10-19T01:43:34Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > That would be a dumb thing to point out, though, because that interspecies transfer of genes happens slowly enough that ecosystems adjust to each one as they happen I’m unaware that uncontrolled natural transfer of genetic material between species or genera is a “slow” process or for that matter that it’s intrinsically safer than “artificial” insertion of a single gene. Cites would be nice. > [@](#): > > …and also, “harm” isn’t really a valid concept in nature, where shit gets disturbed like crazy every now and then, and if something upends everything, that’s nature for ya. Sounds like a pretty valid example of harm. If “nature” decides to kill off plants or animal/human populations with a new pathogen, that arguably threatens more worrisome environmental devastation than inserting a resistance gene through GM technology. But great minds may differ on that. 🙂 Sensible regulation is preferable to opposition based on the naturalistic fallacy. Unfortunately, GMO opponents who say they’re not anti-GMO, just against inadequate regulation of GMOs are akin to people saying “I’m not antivaccine, just pro-safe vaccine”, and it turns out no vaccine has ever existed that meets their “safe” standard. This is not to say that LHOD’s views on GMOs are unreasonable; however far too many on the left (and the right) are dogmatic opponents of GMOs. It’s not that crucial a deal when it comes to introducing a disease resistant coffee variety\*, but could be critical when approving a Covid-19 vaccine or an effective cancer drug. \*On the other hand, _I want my coffee_. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-believes-trumps-tweets/922633/281 "2020-10-19T01:47:10Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > I’m unaware that uncontrolled natural transfer of genetic material between species or genera is a “slow” process or for that matter that it’s intrinsically safer than “artificial” insertion of a single gene. Cites would be nice. Sorry–“rare” would be a better word. Changes to multiple species in an ecosystem through this means is slow, because it’s so rare, but of course each occurrence happens at evolutionary light-speed. > [@](#): > > Sounds like a pretty valid example of harm. If “nature” decides to kill off plants or animal/human populations with a new pathogen, that arguably threatens more worrisome environmental devastation than inserting a resistance gene through GM technology. But great minds may differ on that. When you introduce human concerns into the equation, sure, “harm” exists. But was the cataclysm that ended the rule of dinosaurs and allowed the proliferation of mammals “harmful”? If an interspecies genetic transfer causes a huge change to the ecosystem, and humans aren’t involved, from whose perspective do you evaluate harm? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2020, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-believes-trumps-tweets/922633/282 "2020-10-19T08:59:59Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Oh, and by the way, the reason I occasionally post stuff like that is for BALANCE, because this place is becoming a monocultural echo chamber. But Sam, you are unbalanced. What you perceive as a board becoming a mononoculture is you slipping further and further away from a healthy culture into teh crazy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-believes-trumps-tweets/922633.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-believes-trumps-tweets/922633.md?page=15)