# Sam Stone believes Trump's tweets **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2020, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-believes-trumps-tweets/922633 "2020-10-10T13:47:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-believes-trumps-tweets/922633/563 "2020-12-05T02:46:45Z")
None of these folks hold a candle to Trump and Barr’s breaking of the norms of independence. None of them volunteered the DoJ to be their President’s personal lawyers like Barr has. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-believes-trumps-tweets/922633/564 "2020-12-05T02:55:43Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > {…} Remember, my point wasn’t to blame Democrats, but to refute the assertion that the norm for the justice department and the AG is for them to be impartial and unbiased. I don’t think Holder was, but we also have John Ashcroft, Bill Barr the first time around with Bush, Ed Meese came under fire from Democrats, as did Alberto Gonzalez. Of course, I already mentioned John Kennedy appointing his own brother as attorney general. {…} Maybe not, but what should we make of your ever increasing list of AGs to pick from your ‘go to’ was the Democrat? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stainless_steel_rat/32/5727_2.png) [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stainless_Steel_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-believes-trumps-tweets/922633/565 "2020-12-05T03:20:09Z")
> [@](#): > > None of these folks hold a candle to Trump and Barr’s breaking of the norms of independence. None of them volunteered the DoJ to be their President’s personal lawyers like Barr has. And nobody is arguing that, andy. Sam Stone is obnoxious and on occasion, a PITA, but he has the right of this argument, albeit in a narrow way. Let’s review, one more time: Escrodinger posted: > [@](#): > > I just hope that the Justice Department goes back to being independent, and _not a tool of the administration. That is very much the norm,_ and it was one of the biggest red flags of the current administration. And in response Sam provided an example which he states shows that a previous president’s Attorney General was something less than independent: > [@](#): > > You mean Eric Holder’s justice department? Or Eric Holder, who described his job of Attorney General as being ‘Barack Obama’s Wingman’, and who was cited for contempt of Congress for refusing to respond to legal subpoenas? The guy who had 17 Democrats join Republicans in calling for a criminal contempt resolution? And instead of rebutting his argument, or conceding that perhaps eschrodinger overstated his case (or perhaps could have edited better), the great majority either claimed Sam Stone was either (1) Purposely defaming the Obama administration or (2) using a Tu Quoque argument. I will note that **NOBODY** has argued that eschrodinger was correct in stating that prior Justice Departments to Barr’s would not be a ‘tool of the administration as was very much the norm’. And nobody has rushed to rebut Sam’s Points that prior Justice departments have been at times ‘tools of the administration.’ (and he only went back as far as Kennedy; if you went back to the 19th century…). Now that said, I concur the Barr was a particularly odious example of an Attorney General and the actions his Department took will be infamous in history, but in the _narrow debate_ as Sam defined it, he has had the better of the argument, IMHO. YMMV. And go on and keep fighting with Sam, but I’m busy coaching youth soccer tomorrow so I won’t be available for your 30-40 rebuttals… Press on. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-believes-trumps-tweets/922633/566 "2020-12-05T03:21:29Z")
You can make of it what you want. The God’s honest truth is that he immediately came to mind, probably because I am on the right and therefore biased. But I readily and willingly came up with Republican examples as well, because I am trying be fair, and because it made my point even stronger when what I was arguing against was the notion that bias in the Judiciary is somehow a unique Trump phenomen. In reality, I think everyone participating here knows damned well that complaints about a biased judiciary have been a constant occurence from both Democrats and Republicans for decades. Remember the furor over Janet Reno? Or John Ashcroft? You could argue that I was wrong, as iandiii did, or that I was showing bias, but what you can’t say is that I was engaging in a _tu quoque_ argument. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-believes-trumps-tweets/922633/567 "2020-12-05T04:04:59Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > In reality, I think everyone participating here knows damned well that complaints about a biased judiciary have been a constant occurence from both Democrats and Republicans for decades. For the second time, the Justice Department is not the judiciary you fucking nit wit > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > You could argue that I was wrong, as iandiii did, or that I was showing bias, but what you can’t say is that I was engaging in a _tu quoque_ argument. I have said it. Many others have too. It’s easy to say because it is true. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-believes-trumps-tweets/922633/568 "2020-12-05T04:21:39Z")
> [@Hellestal](#): > > The idea of the Justice Department “going back” to being independent is a direct assertion that it used to be independent, and now no longer is. The comparison is right there in the statement. Maybe that coulda been phrased better, but it was clearly in the context of the Hunter Biden story, wherein the Justice Department wasn’t merely acting on behalf of the administration, but was _acting on behalf of a political campaign_. As bad as Ashcroft was, I don’t recall him engaging in anything like the political activities that Barr has. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-believes-trumps-tweets/922633/569 "2020-12-05T07:41:39Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Of course you can show where I ever said that this behavior was okay, right? It was implied by your tone. Maybe next time put more effort into making your point clear, and less into sounding like a condescending shit head? > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > And you think that’s a logical fallacy? Can I have some of what you are smoking? No. Fuck you, get your own. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-believes-trumps-tweets/922633/570 "2020-12-05T11:22:16Z")
> [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](#): > > And nobody is arguing that, andy. Sam Stone is obnoxious and on occasion, a PITA, but he has the right of this argument, albeit in a narrow way. If Stone agrees that the Barr administration is orders of magnitude worse in terms of violating the principle of an independent DoJ than Holder and the other AG’s he mentioned, then I’d have, at most, minor quibbles with what he said. But I doubt he agrees with that. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stainless_steel_rat/32/5727_2.png) [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stainless_Steel_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-believes-trumps-tweets/922633/571 "2020-12-05T15:39:59Z")
> [@](#): > > If Stone agrees that the Barr administration is orders of magnitude worse in terms of violating the principle of an independent DoJ than Holder and the other AG’s he mentioned, then I’d have, at most, minor quibbles with what he said. But I doubt he agrees with that. And iiandyiii, that, my friend, is moving the goalposts. Sam Stone is arguing a narrow point (see eschrodingers post, with my italics) and you want him to ‘certify’ a point that is not part of that point. FWIW, I agree (as I mentioned above), that Barr’s term will be a period of time pointed too with scorn in the future histories to be written, but if you want Sam to debate some other point (that Barr’s was the worst ever), please make it clear that you are requesting him to make that shift. Just an old high school debater offering his opinion to a writer whom I respect. Press on. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-believes-trumps-tweets/922633/572 "2020-12-05T19:59:54Z")
ISTM that this “narrow point” is equivalent to comparing someone who stomps on a bug to a serial killer and saying “well they both are killers!”. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-believes-trumps-tweets/922633/573 "2020-12-05T20:24:23Z")
It looks to me like it seems that way for you and others in this thread because you keep insisting it was a tu quoque. If it were, then it would be a bad and dumb one. But what he actually said was, in response to the suggestion that it has been “the norm” that the attorney general was super independent and not just a bagman for the president, how about the last one, who was a bagman for the president? That’s not a tu quoque. It’s pointing out a true thing – that attorneys general are not actually independent of the personal and political aims of the president they serve. It is a fair response to say, for example, that that doesn’t matter, because Bill Barr is one of the top .1% of the most loathsome, corrupt and depraved human beings in the history of the world. This would require observing that the thing he was responding to was, in fact, not a very reasonable assertion, and he was correct to refute it. But nobody said that. Instead, it seems like everyone is pretending he said something dumb that he didn’t say. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-believes-trumps-tweets/922633/574 "2020-12-05T21:12:35Z")
It’s a bullshit argument, since other than one or two off-the-cuff statements, there’s no reason to believe Holder wasn’t runnning the DoJ independently from the President. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-believes-trumps-tweets/922633/575 "2020-12-05T22:37:00Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > that attorneys general are not actually independent of the **personal** and political aims of the president they serve. Bolding mine. What other AGs have intervened in civil suits, investigated political rivals, or spread conspiracy theories to help their President? Politically? Yes, there’s always a bit of crosstalk. The AG DOES serve at the pleasure of the President. Personally? Fuck no, and get the fuck out with that bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-believes-trumps-tweets/922633/576 "2020-12-05T23:25:29Z")
Shit almighty. You’ve gotten so collectively wadded up about something you’ve decided was a tu quoque that you can’t interpret anything at all as anything else at all. I didn’t say a fucking thing about whether anybody else did any of those things, you donkey. Nothing I said has anything to do with how bad Barr is, except the part where I said how bad Barr is. Which, incidentally, should have been a slight fucking indication of whether or not I was defending Barr. For fuck’s sake. In any other context than, in this particular instance, it working against you crybabies thinking you were unanimously owning a dumbass conservative, what I said would be completely uncontroversial. Yes, the personal aims of the president. So fucking what. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2020, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-believes-trumps-tweets/922633/577 "2020-12-06T01:20:49Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > Yes, the personal aims of the president No, I’m pointing out YOUR bullshit. Again, show me any AG that personally attempted to use the DOJ to defend the President personally, not the office or political goals. YOU made the claim, as shown by the quote. I don’t give a damn what you think of Barr. You’re making claims that are blatantly false, while also claiming other people are saying things they didn’t say. Back it up or fuck a chicken. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2020, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-believes-trumps-tweets/922633/578 "2020-12-06T02:41:03Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > But what he actually said was, in response to the suggestion that it has been “the norm” that the attorney general was super independent and not just a bagman for the president, how about the last one, who was a bagman for the president? Bullshit. In the original thread Sam quoted this part @eschrodinger’s post… > [@Hunter Biden Laptop Question](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hunter-biden-laptop-question/923587/550): > > I just hope that the Justice Department goes back to being independent, and not a tool of the administration. And responded thusly… > [@Hunter Biden Laptop Question](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hunter-biden-laptop-question/923587/553): > > You mean Eric Holder’s justice department? Or Eric Holder, who described his job of Attorney General as being ‘Barack Obama’s Wingman’, and who was cited for contempt of Congress for refusing to respond to legal subpoenas? The guy who had 17 Democrats join Republicans in calling for a criminal contempt resolution? > > That independent justice department? An extremely straightforward example of a tu quoque. It wasn’t until post #539 in this thread that Sam quoted eschrodinger using the word norm when he dishonestly quoted him like this and pretended that that was the part he was responding to all along… > [@Hunter Biden Laptop Question](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hunter-biden-laptop-question/923587/550): > > I just hope that the Justice Department goes back to being independent, and not a tool of the administration. That is very much the norm,… He’s a gullible, dishonest, chicken fucking piece of shit. There’s really no other interpretation that fits the facts. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2020, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-believes-trumps-tweets/922633/579 "2020-12-06T14:32:24Z")
Those defending Sam\_Stone here are still basically saying that he was trolling. I suppose eschrodinger could have said, “I hope the Justice Department goes back to normal, pre-Tump levels of occasional malfeasance as opposed to the grotesque level of malfeasance we’ve seen in the Trump administration,” but I think we all understood what he said to mean exactly that. All Sam\_Stone did was point out that eschrodinger was speaking in absolutes, which we’re not to do, but isn’t it oh-so-tiring when the debate breaks down to that level? Oh no, eschrodinger didn’t include enough wiggle words in his post. Get 'im! Good job Sam\_Stone, you successfully pointed out that eschrodinger was wrong to suggest that the Justice Department never, ever had any issues with independence prior to Trump. How clumsy of him. And how smart of you to provide an example of “the other side” in order to prove your pedantic point. I wonder if there’s a term for that. Maybe something in Latin. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2020, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-believes-trumps-tweets/922633/580 "2020-12-06T15:01:43Z")
It seems to me that if we’re granting latitude to **eschrodinger** for rhetorical overstatement, we could muster some latitude to **Sam\_Stone** for making a _tu quoque_ response that is also a poor rhetorical device used in response to correct the original comment. Pointing out an obvious argument fallacy is fun and all, but is it so important that we need to go 15 rounds of yes-it-is-no-it-isn’t? Point being, I think both of these posters deserve latitude in this particular case. Jumping all over **Sam\_Stone** because Barr and the entire Trump administration are orders of magnitude worse than those that precede it is an intellectually lightweight way to get in cheap shots against a poster many of us disagree with on many socio-political issues. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2020, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-believes-trumps-tweets/922633/581 "2020-12-06T15:20:26Z")
Jumping all over disingenuous or delusional posters is one of the primary purposes of the Pit! ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2020, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-believes-trumps-tweets/922633/582 "2020-12-06T16:32:24Z")
And I’ve done more than my fair share. But it seems more interesting to attack dumb thinking rather go round and round with _tu-quoque-or-not-tu-quoque._ Maybe it’s just me, but I’ve noticed an escalation in pedantry here that surpasses even the usual SDMB levels. That’s saying something. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-believes-trumps-tweets/922633.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-believes-trumps-tweets/922633.md?page=30)