# Sam Stone - in your humble opinion **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 9, 2009, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-in-your-humble-opinion/488827 "2009-03-09T13:20:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-in-your-humble-opinion/488827/181 "2009-03-14T03:48:29Z")
**Sam** , you’re doing it right now. What I accused of doing was choosing one point to focus on, blithely ignoring everything else, and hammering on it until you declare victory. I predicted you’d pick out **Hentor’s** comment, but am not the least surprised that you’re trying a jujitsu about something I posted instead. But hey, a I’m turing machine, remember? We’re soulless pieces of software, and can’t make “nasty” attacks on anyone’s character. You should really lighten up. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-in-your-humble-opinion/488827/182 "2009-03-14T03:48:55Z")
> [@Mr.Svinlesha](#): > > Five years in to this idiotic debate, and **Sam** finally “bothers” to actually look at **Hentor’s** data. > > Words fail. You might want to do even a tiny bit of thinking or research before shooting your mouth off. This error is new. This is not the data Hentor used five years ago. In fact, I just went to Wikipedia to see when it was screwed up, and it started when a user tried to convert to 2008 constant dollars in April of 2008. Then later someone converted it back, and missed a term or something. Really, just go have a beer and watch TV or read a book. You’re trying way too hard. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-in-your-humble-opinion/488827/183 "2009-03-14T03:50:23Z")
> [@Mr.Svinlesha](#): > > **Sam** , you’re doing it right now. > > What I accused of doing was choosing one point to focus on, blithely ignoring everything else, and hammering on it until you declare victory. I predicted you’d pick out **Hentor’s** comment, but am not the least surprised that you’re trying a jujitsu about something I posted instead. > > But hey, a I’m turing machine, remember? We’re soulless pieces of software, and can’t make “nasty” attacks on anyone’s character. > > You should really lighten up. > > :rolleyes: I said I don’t hold grudges. That doesn’t mean I won’t call you out when you behave like an ass. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-in-your-humble-opinion/488827/184 "2009-03-14T04:07:01Z")
_I’m_ trying to hard? Sheesh, pal, you’re the one pouring over spreadsheets of NASAs budget from the last 30 years. I can’t even be bothered to go back a couple of pages and double check when **Hentor** published his list. Of course, the idea that you don’t hold grudges is also laughable, but again, you’ve made this into a debate not about what I’ve actually said, but only about the stuff you want to respond to. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-in-your-humble-opinion/488827/185 "2009-03-14T04:15:53Z")
> [@Mr.Svinlesha](#): > > _I’m_ trying to hard? Sheesh, pal, you’re the one pouring over spreadsheets of NASAs budget from the last 30 years. I can’t even be bothered to go back a couple of pages and double check when **Hentor** published his list. > > Of course, the idea that you don’t hold grudges is also laughable, but again, you’ve made this into a debate not about what I’ve actually said, but only about the stuff you want to respond to. I was just doing due diligence, and decided to run the numbers as fairly as possible, using standard sources, and post them so that we can put this silly argument to bed. Okay, let’s all be nice and fair and reasonable. Do me a favor: Click on the link to the graphic I put up, and tell me if you think it fairly represents this statement: “Under Bush 1 and Bush 2, NASA saw budget increases, and under Clinton it suffered constant budget erosion.” ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-in-your-humble-opinion/488827/186 "2009-03-14T04:28:33Z")
No. Here are the claims at issue: > [@](#): > > \*And I am totally convinced that John Kerry will be Clinton II when it comes to space exploration. He’ll pay lip service to it, **but look at what happened under Clinton - NASA saw constant budget erosions** , a lack of focus, no vision, and the only mandate that came out of 8 years of the Clinton administration was, “Faster, Better, Cheaper”. And we all know how that worked out. > > And this is not just electioneering on Bush’s part. The Bush family has always been nuts about space. Bush and his Dad are both pilots. Jeb governs Florida, home to the Cape. **Go back and look at NASA funding in the last 30 years. If you do, you’ll notice two times when it received larger than average budget increases - during the first Bush administration, and during the second.** Bush I tried to kick off an ambitious program to go to Mars. He failed. Now the son is taking a whack at re-invigorating NASA. And the word is that in the new budget, every agency in the government is being held to rate-of-inflation growth - except NASA, which is getting the full injection of funds that Bush promised.\* The claim that Bush I and II increased the budget of NASA has never been under dispute. Nor would I ever trust a spreadsheet you’ve set up just to _“to run the numbers as fairly as possible”_; somehow these “fair” numbers you use always seem to have errors in your favor, when they are analyzed. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-in-your-humble-opinion/488827/187 "2009-03-14T04:40:16Z")
> [@Mr.Svinlesha](#): > > No. > > Here are the claims at issue: > > The claim that Bush I and II increased the budget of NASA has never been under dispute. > > Nor would I ever trust a spreadsheet you’ve set up just to _“to run the numbers as fairly as possible”_; somehow these “fair” numbers you use always seem to have errors in your favor, when they are analyzed. That’s why I provided the spreadsheet and links to the source data. If anyone thinks I’m making this up, they’re welcome to check it. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-in-your-humble-opinion/488827/188 "2009-03-14T05:11:02Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Remember, the assertion that has been getting me called a liar for five years now, is that Bush I and Bush II were better for NASA than Clinton was. That Bush I and II increased NASA’s budget, and it saw constant erosion under Clinton. **This is simply not true.** As I’ve repeatedly quoted, your claim was this: > [@Sam Stone in 2004](#): > > Go back and look at NASA funding in the last 30 years. If you do, you’ll notice two times when it received larger than average budget increases - during the first Bush administration, and during the second. Everyone, please take note of what Sam Stone has done here. He has continued to try to pretend he made a different assertion than he did (by pretending he was just talking about Clinton and the Bushes, and he has kindly given you data going back only to 1989. Using the data Sam has provided in his last post, and this [constant dollar conversion tool](http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl), I’ve gone back to look at the numbers for Carter and Reagan. Carter’s NASA budgets did decline in terms of 1996 constant dollars. Reagan’s however (inconveniently for Sam) did not: Year…Nominal .......1996 Constant …Difference…Percent Change 1981…5,537…9,557 1988…9,902…12,059…+2,502… **26%** Now, 26 is still greater than 14 and 12, right? And **Sam** , yeah you still have a little error there in the difference score for Bush, although the percentage change for the figures you have given is correct. Your assertion that looking back over 30 years you’d see two larger than average increases is false. Reagan’s increase, using your methodology here is still higher. I don’t know how many years it will take for you to admit you are simply not correct about this, regardless of which methodology one uses, but it’s kind of a morbid curiosity to find out. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-in-your-humble-opinion/488827/189 "2009-03-14T05:38:04Z")
Speaking of morbid curiosity, unless I’ve missed it, I don’t think I’ve read a post by **Sam** on how he feels _now_ about all that wildly misguided\* backing (and that’s putting it mildly) he gave Bush on his Murderous Capitalistic Crusade. \*Assuming he now realizes it was just that, misguided on his part. Which I am willing to do if only because I’ve been slowly waking from the eight year nightmare and my outrage supply is near empty. Which where I’d like to keep it. Never mind reading 12 page threads on fucking aluminum tubes. Speaking of which… * * * Say hey, **Big Svin**! Great to see you chilling-out, quite literally, once more. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-in-your-humble-opinion/488827/190 "2009-03-14T06:00:07Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > \*Assuming he now realizes it was just that, misguided on his part. Which I am willing to do if only because I’ve been slowly waking from the eight year nightmare and my outrage supply is near empty. Which where I’d like to keep it. Never mind reading 12 page threads on fucking aluminum tubes. Speaking of which… 😃 No shit, my man. I have a memory of trying to hunt down information on whether rivers on the Cambodian border would have been navigable by swift boats. I don’t recall if that claim was one of **Sam Stone’s** or not - they kind of blend together looking back. Seems a waste, but I like to think that although the person I was talking with was never, ever going to drop the false claim, others might benefit. I know I got a hell of a lot out of **Mr. Svinlesha’s** work, and **PatriotX** and other folks who put a lot of time into this kind of fact checking. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-in-your-humble-opinion/488827/191 "2009-03-14T08:39:46Z")
Hey **Red**! Nice to see you again as well, as always. Hope you’re keeping nice and warn down there in the Bahamas, you bastard. 🙂 We’ve got rain and snow up here, cold and gray skies, with more snow on the way. Why oh why couldn’t she have been Jamaican? **Hentor:** Well, he decided to go after me again anyway. I should have made my comment in a private message to you, and we could have then observed his behavior and run a falsification test on my observation statement. Oh well. You have at least seen how adroitly he has simply ignored all the other charges directed at him; changed his original assertion and held fast to it despite numerous posters explaining to him that the issue isn’t, and never was, a Clinton vs. Bush thing; feigned outrage at the tiniest slight towards him, all while displaying utter contempt for his debating opponents; and so on, the whole bag usual **Sam Stone** shenanigans. I too would like to see **Sam** publicly recant on his pre-war claims. He promised he would. He promised he would admit he had been “duped” if David Kay’s smile ever turned upside down. Which it did. (In the context of that promise, it was clear he meant duped by the Bush administration.) Instead, he lay low, kept quite, and when the time was right, began a slimy, hateful attack on the character of John Kerry. Even granting Kerry had been untruthful about his medals, such lies pale in comparison to the lies promulgated by the Bush administration. But that’s the way it is with these war-cheerleaders. They’ll spend hours and hours researching minutia to support the notion that the US **must** go to war, and that anyone who disagrees with that is unhinged, unpatriotic, and so on…but once it turns out they’re wrong, well, you don’t have to waste any time researching _that_. Nor do you have to draw any conclusions from the your errors. No no…just pretend like you were right the whole time and hopefully the matter will eventually disappear. People have such short memories, after all… ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-in-your-humble-opinion/488827/192 "2009-03-14T14:08:46Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > The whole “chickenhawk” argument should be shit-canned. If the argument is about whether a course of military action is reasonable or needful, that is the argument. But that’s exactly what it is. Does an old Vietnam protester really need to be reminded? “Reasonable and needful” can only be assessed in terms of what the cost and effects are, no? The costs are, primarily, lives, no? Theirs and ours both. So is a cause “reasonable or needful” if it costs or risks lives? Whose lives? How valuable are they? I don’t see how you can arrive at a truly responsible conclusion unless you consider if your own life is worth it, not just those of strangers. Not even if they’re strangers who have taken an oath to you, even if you haven’t taken an oath to them in return. Simply, if it isn’t worth your own life or your own family’s, how can you say it’s worth anybody else’s instead? That’s where the “chicken” part comes in. Yes, it’s at the very heart of the question when you’re considering “a course of military action”, as you so daintily put it. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-in-your-humble-opinion/488827/193 "2009-03-14T14:39:03Z")
I think the chickenhawk thing is a tough call. I certainly agree that people should not be prohibited from thinking or arguing that using military force is necessary if they’ve not been in the military. But the level of fomenting that we were exposed to, and the chestbeating for war, the calling out as cowards of those who opposed the war, that is a different kettle of fish in my opinion. Nearly all of the right-wing intelligensia fell into that category. Here’s how Glenn Greenwald described the “chicken hawk” label. > [@](#): > > Something more than mere support for a war without fighting in it is required to earn the “chicken hawk” label. Chicken-hawkism is the belief that advocating a war from afar is a sign of personal courage and strength, and that opposing a war from afar is a sign of personal cowardice and weakness. A “chicken hawk” is someone who not merely advocates a war, but believes that their advocacy is proof of the courage which those who will actually fight the war in combat require. [http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/2006/07/what-makes-someone-chicken-hawk.htm](http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/2006/07/what-makes-someone-chicken-hawk.htm) > [@](#): > > Central to the right-wing mythmaking machine is the depiction of their male leaders as swaggering tough guys in the iconic mold of an American cowboy and brave, steadfast warrior. Above all else, Republican leaders are invariably held up as exuding the virtues of traditional American masculinity – courage, physical strength, "regular guy"ness, and most of all, a willingness and ability to stare down America’s various and numerous enemies – in war, if necessary – and defeat them through superior strength. > > The reality, in virtually every case, is the opposite. Those who end up as leaders of the right-wing movement in America have nothing in their lives to demonstrate any actual courage, physical strength, or any of the warrior virtues they desperately strive to exude. Their only “toughness” or masculine “tough guy” credentials are from cheerleading as they send others off to fight wars, never to fight in any themselves. Just like John Wayne, their masculine toughness comes from the costumes they wear, the scripts they read, the roles they play – never from the reality of their own lives. > **[Tough Guise - Antiwar.com](https://original.antiwar.com/glenn-greenwald/2008/04/17/tough-guise/)** > > The following is adapted from Glenn Greenwald's new book, Great American Hypocrites, released this week. Central to the right-wing mythmaking machine is the depiction of their male leaders as swaggering tough guys in the iconic mold of an American... I’ve got no problem with using the term in that fashion. It’s perfectly apt. I also recommend, once again, _Great American Hypocrites_. ---
**Author:** ![Garula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ea666f/32.png) [@Garula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garula)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-in-your-humble-opinion/488827/194 "2009-03-14T15:29:47Z")
You guys must be getting some pretty sore arms by now from patting each other on the back so much. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-in-your-humble-opinion/488827/195 "2009-03-14T16:05:27Z")
> [@Garula](#): > > You guys must be getting some pretty sore arms by now from patting each other on the back so much. I know mine are, but everyone else apparently gave me a happy ending (according to **Sinaijon** ), so their wrists and forearms are probably pretty fatigued too. Thanks for your concern, though, and your important contribution to the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-in-your-humble-opinion/488827/196 "2009-03-14T16:19:06Z")
By the way, in case my earlier snark about **Sam** being frequently wrong was misinterpreted - I _have_ disagreed with him strongly on a number of subjects and think his conclusions on them were dead wrong. The fact remains, though, that a lot of posters (maybe even me :eek:) are frequently wrong about something or other (let us not parse the meaning of “frequently” too overintensely) and still have something valuable to contribute, even if it’s just a viewpoint that is seldom heard and which gives the gallery marksmanship practice. I want to hear challenges to my accepted beliefs. **Sam** ’s presence adds to the value of the board and I would be sorry to see him go. (Not that I will let up on him when he posts something that’s, well, **wrong**. :D) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-in-your-humble-opinion/488827/197 "2009-03-14T16:30:11Z")
He has his moments, regrettably, they are moments. For instance, his argument that exporting Canadian “beer” was morally acceptable if the product is clearly labeled as an industrial solvent. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-in-your-humble-opinion/488827/198 "2009-03-14T16:57:15Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > He has his moments, regrettably, they are moments. For instance, his argument that exporting Canadian “beer” was morally acceptable if the product is clearly labeled as an industrial solvent. That’s a LIE! I said it could also be used as a fire retardant. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-in-your-humble-opinion/488827/199 "2009-03-14T17:08:11Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > He has his moments, regrettably, they are moments. For instance, his argument that exporting Canadian “beer” was morally acceptable if the product is clearly labeled as an industrial solvent. Are you suggesting there’s actually a practical use for Labatt’s Blue? Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-in-your-humble-opinion/488827/200 "2009-03-14T17:51:51Z")
**Sam** , I’m surprised you’re back without a response. Do you see how, even using your suggested methodology, Reagan’s funding of NASA renders your original assertion incorrect? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-in-your-humble-opinion/488827.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-in-your-humble-opinion/488827.md?page=11)