# Sam Stone - Why do you hate America? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 30, 2010, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-why-do-you-hate-america/552037 "2010-08-30T20:07:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-why-do-you-hate-america/552037/201 "2010-09-01T18:49:04Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > > [@Maeglin](#): > > > > I just don’t get this. Where I come from on the left, this is perfectly normal and expected. You’re simply not supposed to be a reflexive apologist for a politician you might have supported before he was actually elected. We eat our own all the time. > > Thank you for making this observation. I think one reason Sam might have a hard time comprehending it is his own personality. He spent the 8 Bush years here as a cheerleader for economic policies that led us right into the shitter, urging us to clap hard if we believe all the while. Right wingers are much more authoritarian, so if their preferred leader tells them, for instance, that deficits don’t matter, they don’t matter, until that deficit becomes the responsibility of someone they view as an opponent. Here’s where you say it, Hentor. You say that Sam is a fiscal conservative, so he’s a right-winger, so he gets his political positions from the right-wing leaders. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-why-do-you-hate-america/552037/202 "2010-09-01T18:50:36Z")
WooHoo! Five pages, bitches! ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-why-do-you-hate-america/552037/203 "2010-09-01T19:12:12Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > > > Thank you for making this observation. I think one reason Sam might have a hard time comprehending it is his own personality. He spent the 8 Bush years here as a cheerleader for economic policies that led us right into the shitter, urging us to clap hard if we believe all the while. Right wingers are much more authoritarian, so if their preferred leader tells them, for instance, that deficits don’t matter, they don’t matter, until that deficit becomes the responsibility of someone they view as an opponent. > > Here’s where you say it, Hentor. You say that Sam is a fiscal conservative, so he’s a right-winger, so he gets his political positions from the right-wing leaders. You’re adding all kinds of words and connections to that that I just did not say. Also note that I never said remotely what you’ve previously claimed. I’m clearly not the one with problems of logic and reason. Bwoot! Right up the urethra. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-why-do-you-hate-america/552037/204 "2010-09-01T19:35:37Z")
I gotta be honest, **Hentor**. I’m having a hard time seeing the daylight between what you said and **RR** ’s paraphrase. What’s the distinction between these two quotes? > [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Thank you for making this observation. I think one reason Sam might have a hard time comprehending it is his own personality. He spent the 8 Bush years here as a cheerleader for economic policies that led us right into the shitter, urging us to clap hard if we believe all the while. Right wingers are much more authoritarian, so if their preferred leader tells them, for instance, that deficits don’t matter, they don’t matter, until that deficit becomes the responsibility of someone they view as an opponent. > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Too bad you don’t have such a familiarity with logic and reason. You are saying that every fiscal conservative is a right-winger that simply bases their beliefs on what the head right-wingers say they should believe. That is beyond idiotic, and obviously so. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-why-do-you-hate-america/552037/205 "2010-09-01T20:04:38Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > Thank you for making this observation. I think one reason Sam might have a hard time comprehending it is his own personality. He spent the 8 Bush years here as a cheerleader for economic policies that led us right into the shitter, urging us to clap hard if we believe all the while. Right wingers are much more authoritarian, so if their preferred leader tells them, for instance, that deficits don’t matter, they don’t matter, until that deficit becomes the responsibility of someone they view as an opponent. Not to mention the fact that conservatives tend to believe their leaders not because of any supposed authoritarian nature (IMO, liberals prevail there), but because they have expressed a mindset consisting of conservative values and can therefore be trusted with making the right decisions about things. And then, if or when they screw up, we realize that nobody’s perfect and we’re inclined to feel that they did what was best with the information they had at the time. “Authoritarianism” has nothing to do with it, except as how you happen to view conservatives in your own mind. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-why-do-you-hate-america/552037/206 "2010-09-01T20:23:52Z")
Nah, Starving Artist, you’re just an idiot who is an embarassment to rational minds, be they left or right. I would no more trust you to make a good decision than I would trust a turnip. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-why-do-you-hate-america/552037/207 "2010-09-01T20:48:19Z")
Hmmm…this brings to mind the question of just which conservative leaders or politicians you would trust to make good decisions? In other words, why do I suspect that your assessment of me as an idiot is based more upon my polical affiliation and the beliefs I hold accordingly than on what I actually say? Certainly no one in my off board life has ever called me an idiot. In fact, my intelligence has been commented upon in a positive way all throughout my life, whether by the teachers I had while in school or the executives and other people I’ve worked for or with throughout my life or the neighbors and friends I have dinner and hang out with. Yep, “bright boy” has gotten lots of hits in my life, while “idiot” has yielded zero. So I think the disparity lies with your perception, dear, and not with reality. But go ahead and call me an idiot if it makes you feel better. It’s just that I already know that insulting the intelligence of your opponents is tactic #29 in the _Handbook of Liberal Challenge to Established Order_ (_or How To Proclaim Love For America While Trying To Change Everything About It_), so I see through it and give it the weight it deserves. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-why-do-you-hate-america/552037/208 "2010-09-01T21:52:33Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Not to mention the fact that conservatives tend to believe their leaders not because of any supposed authoritarian nature (IMO, liberals prevail there), **but because they have expressed a mindset consisting of conservative values and can therefore be trusted with making the right decisions about things**. Oh man, classic **Starving Artist**. Conservatives can be trusted with making the right decisions. Why? Because they have the mindset consisting of conservative values. But when they make the wrong decision? > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > And then, if or when they screw up, we realize that nobody’s perfect and we’re inclined to feel that they did what was best with the information they had at the time. “Authoritarianism” has nothing to do with it, except as how you happen to view conservatives in your own mind. So a conservative screws up and it’s okay. They made the right choice, they just had really shitty intel. But it’s okay, because they did what they felt was best. Classic. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-why-do-you-hate-america/552037/209 "2010-09-01T22:12:18Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > I gotta be honest, **Hentor**. I’m having a hard time seeing the daylight between what you said and **RR** ’s paraphrase. What’s the distinction between these two quotes? > > > [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > > > Thank you for making this observation. I think one reason Sam might have a hard time comprehending it is his own personality. He spent the 8 Bush years here as a cheerleader for economic policies that led us right into the shitter, urging us to clap hard if we believe all the while. Right wingers are much more authoritarian, so if their preferred leader tells them, for instance, that deficits don’t matter, they don’t matter, until that deficit becomes the responsibility of someone they view as an opponent. > > > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > > Too bad you don’t have such a familiarity with logic and reason. You are saying that every fiscal conservative is a right-winger that simply bases their beliefs on what the head right-wingers say they should believe. That is beyond idiotic, and obviously so. Really? You don’t see any differences? Okay, just point to where I said “fiscal conservative.” In order to get fiscal conservative into what I said, you’d have to think that “cheerleader” for Bush economic policies equates to fiscal conservative. I don’t think it really does. Do you? Alternatively, you’d have to think that “right winger” is equivalent to “fiscal conservative”. I don’t think that’s true either. So, I don’t believe that every fiscal conservative is a right winger, nor do I think that every fiscal conservative is high in authoritarianism. More to the point, I never said any such thing. It’s bullshit to assert otherwise. If you really can’t grasp that, there’s nothing I can do to help you. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-why-do-you-hate-america/552037/210 "2010-09-01T23:21:39Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > > > Not to mention the fact that conservatives tend to believe their leaders not because of any supposed authoritarian nature (IMO, liberals prevail there), **but because they have expressed a mindset consisting of conservative values and can therefore be trusted with making the right decisions about things**. > > Oh man, classic **Starving Artist**. Conservatives can be trusted with making the right decisions. Why? Because they have the mindset consisting of conservative values. > > But when they make the wrong decision? > > > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > > > And then, if or when they screw up, we realize that nobody’s perfect and we’re inclined to feel that they did what was best with the information they had at the time. “Authoritarianism” has nothing to do with it, except as how you happen to view conservatives in your own mind. > > So a conservative screws up and it’s okay. They made the right choice, they just had really shitty intel. But it’s okay, because they did what they felt was best. > > Classic. I didn’t say conservatives are infallable, because clearly no one is. It’s just that, in the main, my opinion is that conservatives can be counted upon to make the right kinds of decisions and to look at things in the proper way and from the right perspective most of the time. Then when they do happen to make mistakes, it’s easier to understand or overlook those mistakes because you know they were trying to do what’s right. None of this is particularly noteworthy. People on your side of the political spectrum feel exactly the same way about their own. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2010, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-why-do-you-hate-america/552037/211 "2010-09-01T23:47:07Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > > [@Bosstone](#): > > > > I gotta be honest, **Hentor**. I’m having a hard time seeing the daylight between what you said and **RR** ’s paraphrase. What’s the distinction between these two quotes? > > Really? You don’t see any differences? Okay, just point to where I said “fiscal conservative.” > > In order to get fiscal conservative into what I said, you’d have to think that “cheerleader” for Bush economic policies equates to fiscal conservative. I don’t think it really does. Do you? Alternatively, you’d have to think that “right winger” is equivalent to “fiscal conservative”. I don’t think that’s true either. > > So, I don’t believe that every fiscal conservative is a right winger, nor do I think that every fiscal conservative is high in authoritarianism. More to the point, I never said any such thing. It’s bullshit to assert otherwise. > > If you really can’t grasp that, there’s nothing I can do to help you. All Sam Stone has ever done here is espouse fiscally conservative positions–he’s a fiscal conservative. You take that to mean he is a right winger and therefore only espouses those views because he’s into authoritarianism and that’s what the right-wing leaders tell him to espouse. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-why-do-you-hate-america/552037/212 "2010-09-02T01:13:37Z")
Bullshit. Or else ther is ‘fiscall conservative’ and ‘fiscally conservative’ and never the twain shall meet. I’m fiscally conservative and would vote for any candidate that would actually be fiscally conservative in office (well, my other key criteria is to rat fuck the moral majority. Problem is, I don’t know how far back you’ve got to go to find a republican that did more than pay lip service to being fiscally conservative. Certainly from Reagan onwards they’ve done nothing but say ‘tax and spend democrats’ while cutting taxes and spending like a drunken sailors themselves. and let’s not get started on the whole 'we need to cut the deficit RIGHT NOW but deficits and tax cuts are great when we are leading the country. I’ve asked sam a couple times now for some past threads during either of the bush years where he advocated reducing the deficit. fiscal conservative my ass. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-why-do-you-hate-america/552037/213 "2010-09-02T01:41:24Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > All Sam Stone has ever done here is espouse fiscally conservative positions–he’s a fiscal conservative. You take that to mean he is a right winger and therefore only espouses those views because he’s into authoritarianism and that’s what the right-wing leaders tell him to espouse. No. You keep trying to put those words in my mouth. Stop it, you shit eating douchebag. I regard him as a right-winger because he has done nothing but lick the sweat off the inner thighs of any conservative in the public eye, most notably George W. Bush for two full terms. He’s not actually a fiscal conservative for the same reason - there was no bigger advocate for Bush’s economic policies on the boards. You cannot be an actual fiscal conservative and have done that. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-why-do-you-hate-america/552037/214 "2010-09-02T02:16:30Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > > > Really? You don’t see any differences? Okay, just point to where I said “fiscal conservative.” > > > > In order to get fiscal conservative into what I said, you’d have to think that “cheerleader” for Bush economic policies equates to fiscal conservative. I don’t think it really does. Do you? Alternatively, you’d have to think that “right winger” is equivalent to “fiscal conservative”. I don’t think that’s true either. > > > > So, I don’t believe that every fiscal conservative is a right winger, nor do I think that every fiscal conservative is high in authoritarianism. More to the point, I never said any such thing. It’s bullshit to assert otherwise. > > > > If you really can’t grasp that, there’s nothing I can do to help you. > > All Sam Stone has ever done here is espouse fiscally conservative positions–he’s a fiscal conservative. You take that to mean he is a right winger and therefore only espouses those views because he’s into authoritarianism and that’s what the right-wing leaders tell him to espouse. No he hasn’t. Frankly, I’m not sure that he’s ever pushed a fiscally conservative view point unless your definition is entirely different than what the rest of us use. Thread after thread, post after post, he pushes anti-government rhetoric. Small government, few regulations, an end to entitlement programs. That’s right wing and NOT fiscally conservative. What he doesn’t do push is social conservative ideals, and for that I thank him. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-why-do-you-hate-america/552037/215 "2010-09-02T02:20:33Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > > [@emacknight](#): > > > > Oh man, classic **Starving Artist**. Conservatives can be trusted with making the right decisions. Why? Because they have the mindset consisting of conservative values. > > > > But when they make the wrong decision? > > > > So a conservative screws up and it’s okay. They made the right choice, they just had really shitty intel. But it’s okay, because they did what they felt was best. > > > > Classic. > > I didn’t say conservatives are infallable, because clearly no one is. It’s just that, in the main, my opinion is that conservatives can be counted upon to make the right kinds of decisions and to look at things in the proper way and from the right perspective most of the time. \*\*Then when they do happen to make mistakes, it’s easier to understand or overlook those mistakes because you know they were trying to do what’s right. \*\* > > None of this is particularly noteworthy. People on your side of the political spectrum feel exactly the same way about their own. I love it. You’re adorable. So is it fair to say that you don’t think liberals are “trying to do what’s right?” Are they actively trying to do stuff wrong? Or are they just doing things you don’t agree with? Can you tell me which “side” am I on again? I appear to have misplaced my team jersey. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-why-do-you-hate-america/552037/216 "2010-09-02T03:36:31Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > It’s just that I already know that insulting the intelligence of your opponents is tactic #29 in the _Handbook of Liberal Challenge to Established Order_… And you’d never do something like that, would you? ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-why-do-you-hate-america/552037/217 "2010-09-02T05:47:48Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > If you really can’t grasp that, there’s nothing I can do to help you. Hey, relax, I just asked for clarification. And I agree that **Sam** is no mere fiscal conservative, not after the bullshit about WMDs in Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-why-do-you-hate-america/552037/218 "2010-09-02T07:11:08Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > So is it fair to say that you don’t think . . . With Starving Artist it’s more of a Turing test issue. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-why-do-you-hate-america/552037/219 "2010-09-02T11:32:54Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > > [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > > > If you really can’t grasp that, there’s nothing I can do to help you. > > Hey, relax, I just asked for clarification. you’re right. I’m sorry. i’ve just had some experiences recently with obtuseness on the boards, when i thought i was being eminently clear. please forgive my snark. ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2010, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-why-do-you-hate-america/552037/220 "2010-09-02T17:28:15Z")
No editorial comments intended, but I have to pass on today’s Quote of the Day from the google: Americans are benevolently ignorant about Canada, while Canadians are malevolently well informed about the United States. - [J. Bartlett Brebner](http://faculty.marianopolis.edu/c.belanger/quebechistory/bios/jbbrebner.htm) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-why-do-you-hate-america/552037.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-why-do-you-hate-america/552037.md?page=12)