# Sam Stone - Why do you hate America? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 30, 2010, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-why-do-you-hate-america/552037 "2010-08-30T20:07:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-why-do-you-hate-america/552037/101 "2010-08-31T17:07:28Z")
**Sam** : I think this Pitting is for two reasons: 1. You are often a very thoughtful and insightful poster here. You have your bias, for sure, but that’s nothing out of the ordinary. At any rate, you are overall a very good contributor to this MB. But that thread you started was just bad. You can make light of the factual errors, but they were still there. And, as I said in that thread, it was basically an appeal to authority. A weak authority, at that, as Zuckerman and Cramer were never “strong” Obama supporters. I doubt if most posters here would be Pitted over a crappy GD thread, but I think people expect more from you. 2. You got all pissy when you were called on it, and you left, sulking. Bad playground behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-why-do-you-hate-america/552037/102 "2010-08-31T17:11:27Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I’ll bet most Canadians think we’re still the left-wing little brother of the U.S., but it’s no longer true. As of next year, measured as a percentage of GDP the U.S will have a bigger government, higher taxes, more progressive taxes, and more debt than Canada. In addition, it’s going to be less business friendly and have more regulations. That’s because in the USA, the right wing resulted in a crapped up economy, bigger government, higher taxes, and greater debt. We are more left-wing in Canada, for we have better social services, starting with health care, while still keeping the enconomy in line. The trick is to have a better economy and better social services, rather than sacrificing one or the other. Canada is doing well at this, whereas the USA is doing poorly with both. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-why-do-you-hate-america/552037/103 "2010-08-31T17:18:47Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Come on, guys. Give up on the BS about him being Canadian and that US politics is basically none of his business. That’s just a red herring, and detracts from the real reason for this thread. Just drop it. Actually, the ‘real reason’ for this thread appears to be that I “hate America” because I’m Canadian and talk about American politics all the time. So actually, the people giving me grief for being Canadian are right on point. As for the OP which inspired it, I still don’t get what was so wildly wrong about it. I made a very small error in calling the CEO of intel an ‘Obama Supporter’, when he was just a supporter of an Obama policy. I was correct about the other two. And it wasn’t exactly a far-fetched idea, and it also wasn’t wrong in any substantive way in any of its conclusions. The way I see it, a bunch of people nit-picked rather irrelevant details and blew a gasket over them, rather than address the core point that the Obama administration’s policies and rhetoric are driving away their former supporters in the business community to the point where they are penning hostile op-eds. If you think this was a radical partisan interpretation of what’s going on, you might want to tell it to the [New York Times](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/31/business/31sorkin.html?_r=1&ref=politics) this morning, which ran an article almost identical in tone to my OP. > [@The New York Times](#): > > **Why Wall St. Is Deserting Obama** > > Daniel S. Loeb, the hedge fund manager, was one of Barack Obama’s biggest backers in the 2008 presidential campaign. > > A registered Democrat, Mr. Loeb has given and raised hundreds of thousands of dollars for Democrats. Less than a year ago, he was considered to be among the Wall Street elite still close enough to the White House to be invited to a speech in Lower Manhattan, where President Obama outlined the need for a financial regulatory overhaul. > > So it came as quite a surprise on Friday, when Mr. Loeb sent a letter to his investors that sounded as if he were preparing to join Glenn Beck in Washington over the weekend. > > “As every student of American history knows, this country’s core founding principles included nonpunitive taxation, constitutionally guaranteed protections against persecution of the minority and an inexorable right of self-determination,” he wrote. “Washington has taken actions over the past months, like the Goldman suit that seem designed to fracture the populace by pulling capital and power from the hands of some and putting it in the hands of others.” > … > Mr. Loeb isn’t the first Wall Streeter to turn on the president. Steven A. Cohen, founder of the hedge fund SAC Capital Advisors and a supporter of the Obama campaign, recently held a meeting with Republican candidates in his home in Greenwich, Conn., to strategize about the midterm elections, according to Absolute Return magazine. > > Other onetime supporters, like Jamie Dimon, chief executive of JPMorgan Chase, also feel burned by the Obama administration, people close to him say. This is close to what I said - with three different examples. > [@](#): > > That the honeymoon between Washington and Wall Street has turned to bitter recriminations is not news Unless it’s reported on the SDMB by a ‘known partisan’. Then it’s the subject of mockery. Aside from providing the three links, this is what I said: > [@Sam Stone](#): > > This matches my perception as well - businesses aren’t investing because they perceive Washington as being hostile to them. The exact same point the NY Times business page just made. > [@Sam Stone](#): > > The non-stop flood of regulations, proposed regulations, proposed taxes, and other interventions by the Obama administration, coupled with the constant-anti-business posturing of Obama, has shaken their confidence and made it impossible for them to know what the future business environment will look like. I believe this is also a factual statement. If you want me to list the ways in which the Obama administration has poisoned the business environment, please start a thread in Great Debates and I’ll tell you. I won’t start one because if I start another negative Obama thread it will end up just like the first one. Finally, I said > [@Sam Stone](#): > > That’s a major reason why the U.S. economy has stalled while the rest of the world is recovering. Clearly this was somewhat of a generalization. I don’t literally think ‘the whole world’ is recovering nicely. I’m sure you can find examples of countries having a hard time of it. The essence of that sentence is that the U.S. recovery is lagging compared to other first-world countries. **tries** called my post ‘ridiculous’ and that I didn’t check ‘basic facts’. As proof, he offered [this graph](http://www.oecd.org/document/11/0,3343,en_2649_33715_45833419_1_1_1_1,00.html), which shows… That the U.S. economy under-performed every economy in the G8 other than Japan and Italy. Since that graph was published, however, estimates for U.S. Q2 growth were downgraded, making it look even worse (and just about even with Italy), making Japan the only worse performer. Funny, Japan is the other country on the list which has been trying to borrow and spend its way out a recession, and which has by far the biggest debt of any country in the G8. Instead of making me look wrong, that graph proves my point. The frustrating thing for me is that a post like mine, which is basically just reporting what’s going on in the business community, gets savaged, leads to a pitting, and I get called a ‘joke’. In the meantime, I can point to thread after thread in which left-leaning people on this board will give a pass to wildly inaccurate statements that support their own biases, even when they know the statements are wrong. For example, there’s [this recent thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=575938) titled, “Why should I/Anyone care (that/if) 99% of the wealth is held by 1% of the people?” Now, that number is not just wrong, it’s grossly wrong. It’s not just a slight inaccuracy - the real number is about 35%. The difference between 99% and 35% is the difference between an African dictatorship with a poor peasant population, and a modern western democracy. That thread was full of participants who in the past have called me a liar or dishonest for the kinds of errors I made in the last OP (i.e. trivial, or errors that turned out not to be). When I called out the OP for being way wrong, here are some responses: **Beware of Doug** : Which is an excellent way to distract us from the issue at large: much money concentrated in few hands. **gonzomax** : It is called exaggeration for effect. **Wesley Clark** : And the OP’s numbers weren’t that off, the top 10% has 70% instead of 90%. **Little Nemo:** I didn’t see any point in arguing over the exact figures. The OP’s point was that he didn’t care if 99% of the wealth was owned by 1% of the people. Or if 90% was owned by 9%. So presumedly he wouldn’t care if the actual figures are 35% owned by 1% or 69% owned by 10% or 80% owned by 20%. See, it doesn’t really matter if the OP is wildly wrong in this case, because, well, the general idea that the rich are too rich is a good one. Besides, when it comes to bashing the rich, who wants to quibble over mere facts? But when I post on this damned board, I know every single sentence in it is going to get parsed with a magnifying glass, and if any of it can plausibly be called incorrect on any level, I’ll be called a dishonest liar. If I make a rounding error after doing two hours of math to make a point, I’m a liar. That’s the way this place rolls. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-why-do-you-hate-america/552037/104 "2010-08-31T17:22:44Z")
> [@gravitycrash](#): > > > [@gonzomax](#): > > > > He is horribly slanted and it shows. That is why his arguments will not be treated as a fair and honest debate. He makes it impossible. > > The first reaction when he opens a post is"here he goes again". > > Holy fuck this is rich. Not only have you broken my irony meter you have caused it to go into runaway meltdown mode. > > Congratulations. Gonzomax: the instigator of the Great Irony Meter Holocaust. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-why-do-you-hate-america/552037/105 "2010-08-31T17:29:34Z")
**Sam** : Why did you have to base your premise on those guys being “strong Obama supporters”? First, they weren’t “strong” Obama supporters. And so what if they were? Either the arguments are good, or they aren’t. Besides, there are plenty of people who were “strong” Obama supporters who disagree with what he may doing in one area or another. Better to focus on specific Obama policies, and tell us why they are good or bad. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-why-do-you-hate-america/552037/106 "2010-08-31T17:30:59Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > But when I post on this damned board, I know every single sentence in it is going to get parsed with a magnifying glass, and if any of it can plausibly be called incorrect on any level, I’ll be called a dishonest liar. If I make a rounding error after doing two hours of math to make a point, I’m a liar. Or even if you don’t. There is a significant portion of the SDMB who want this to be an echo chamber, where no one calls them on their shit. Some want debate, no doubt about that - the rest just want to shout down anyone who won’t toe the line. And they will seize on anything they can to try to stop debate. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-why-do-you-hate-america/552037/107 "2010-08-31T17:34:35Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Finally, I said > > > [@Sam Stone](#): > > > > That’s a major reason why the U.S. economy has stalled while the rest of the world is recovering. > > Clearly this was somewhat of a generalization. I don’t literally think ‘the whole world’ is recovering nicely. I’m sure you can find examples of countries having a hard time of it. The essence of that sentence is that the U.S. recovery is lagging compared to other first-world countries. **tries** called my post ‘ridiculous’ and that I didn’t check ‘basic facts’. As proof, he offered [this graph](http://www.oecd.org/document/11/0,3343,en_2649_33715_45833419_1_1_1_1,00.html), which shows… That the U.S. economy under-performed every economy in the G8 other than Japan and Italy. Since that graph was published, however, estimates for U.S. Q2 growth were downgraded, making it look even worse (and just about even with Italy), making Japan the only worse performer. Funny, Japan is the other country on the list which has been trying to borrow and spend its way out a recession, and which has by far the biggest debt of any country in the G8. This in my opinion is the nub of the current problem with the US. Debt, debt, debt. Japan and Italy are also burdened with debt. When a country has debt over 90% of GDP, as the US currently does, some think that it can cause a [1% reduction in yearly economic growth](http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN088462520100608) This is clearly not a good thing, as Japan’s experience for the past 15 years tells us. A major difference I have with **Sam Stone** is that he seems to want to put the primary blame for the US’s current economic malaise purely on Obama. On the other hand, I look at the debt load that Obama inherited, together with the economic bubble popping, together with the expensive wars that he inherited (which are politically very difficult to extricate his country from). He really did inherit a shitty hand, and his options at this point are extremely limited. Again - Obama did not create the debt problem single-handedly in his first year in office. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-why-do-you-hate-america/552037/108 "2010-08-31T18:01:53Z")
> [@montag01](#): > > I simply dislike non-U.S. citizens talking about our leaders, regardless of party. Tough ! Get over it. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-why-do-you-hate-america/552037/109 "2010-08-31T18:02:16Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > No real dog in this fight This is #1 on the list of Top Ten Comments Michael Vick Should Never Make To Reporters. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-why-do-you-hate-america/552037/110 "2010-08-31T18:20:39Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > **Sam** : > > Why did you have to base your premise on those guys being “strong Obama supporters”? First, they weren’t “strong” Obama supporters. And so what if they were? Either the arguments are good, or they aren’t. Besides, there are plenty of people who were “strong” Obama supporters who disagree with what he may doing in one area or another. Better to focus on specific Obama policies, and tell us why they are good or bad. In this case, it was central to my point. After all, it’s not news if three Obama opponents publish op-eds criticizing him. It IS news if his former supporters are doing it. It’s an indication that their complaints aren’t partisan, but based on real disagreements. For example, it was a lot more noteworthy when Chris Buckley jumped the Republican ship and supported Obama than was the support for Obama from EJ Dionne. You know what I mean? And I described them as ‘strong’ supporters because they were. Or rather, I missed the mark with the Intel guy, but the other two were quite vociferous in their support of Obama. I watch the McLaughlin group every week (Lord knows why), and Mort Zuckerman is a regular on there. He has been defending Obama on that show for three years, but his tone started changing markedly several months ago, and now he’s split - he still supports Obama on a few matters, but when it comes to the economy, he is royally pissed. Maybe I didn’t describe my point well enough, or you misread it. The content of the editorials wasn’t really my point. ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-why-do-you-hate-america/552037/111 "2010-08-31T18:50:15Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Actually, the ‘real reason’ for this thread appears to be that I “hate America” because I’m Canadian and talk about American politics all the time. So actually, the people giving me grief for being Canadian are right on point. Meh. All one-trick ponies are eventually fucking annoying, and your tricks weren’t all that amusing when the circus first came to town. Try starting some threads that don’t distill down to “You guys suck.” and maybe you’ll be worth reading. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-why-do-you-hate-america/552037/112 "2010-08-31T18:50:29Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > In this case, it was central to my point. After all, it’s not news if three Obama opponents publish op-eds criticizing him. It IS news if his former supporters are doing it. It’s an indication that their complaints aren’t partisan, but based on real disagreements. I just don’t get this. Where I come from on the left, this is perfectly normal and expected. You’re simply not supposed to be a reflexive apologist for a politician you might have supported before he was actually elected. We eat our own all the time. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-why-do-you-hate-america/552037/113 "2010-08-31T18:56:57Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > > [@montag01](#): > > > > I simply dislike non-U.S. citizens talking about our leaders, regardless of party. > > Tough ! Get over it. That’s kind of what I was thinking. Come up here and stop me also came to mind. 🙂 (Preferably in January.) ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-why-do-you-hate-america/552037/114 "2010-08-31T19:14:11Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > This in my opinion is the nub of the current problem with the US. Debt, debt, debt. Japan and Italy are also burdened with debt. When a country has debt over 90% of GDP, as the US currently does, some think that it can cause a [1% reduction in yearly economic growth](http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN088462520100608) This is clearly not a good thing, as Japan’s experience for the past 15 years tells us. Yeah, I’ve linked to that paper here several times. The U.S. debt isn’t quite at 90% now if you just look at the ‘on the book’ debt, but if you factor in the liabilities of the entitlement system, it’s way over. And it gets worse every year out, and starts accelerating after 2020 in a big way. That’s close enough that serious action has to be taken now to stop it, as it will get more and more painful to fix with each passing year, and that pain will grow exponentially after just a few more years. > [@](#): > > A major difference I have with **Sam Stone** is that he seems to want to put the primary blame for the US’s current economic malaise purely on Obama. On the other hand, I look at the debt load that Obama inherited, together with the economic bubble popping, together with the expensive wars that he inherited (which are politically very difficult to extricate his country from). He really did inherit a shitty hand, and his options at this point are extremely limited. Again - Obama did not create the debt problem single-handedly in his first year in office. On the contrary, I know exactly where the debt came from, and how much of it is Obama’s fault. There is no question that he inherited a huge debt and a huge deficit. Had he not signed all the spending bills Congress threw at him, he’d still be presiding over a deficit. The recession cost 4% of GDP in tax revenue, and there’s no way a government is going to run a surplus under those conditions. But he knew what he was inheriting. He signed up for the job. All presidents inherit shitty situations. Bush was elected right after the dot-com crash, and almost immediately was forced to deal with a terrorist attack that wiped out a trillion dollars in wealth. Reagan inherited a dysfunctional military, a Sovet Union on the move, and double-digit interest rates and inflation. Oh well. Being president is hard. What matters is how the President responds to the crisis. In Obama’s case, he not only bought into the argument that a huge stimulus was needed, but he washed his hands of it and let Congress write the bill, which turned into a partisan pork-fest. Then he ignored the economy and expended a bunch of his political capital overhauling the health care system, which should not have been a high priority at this time. But what’s worse, the bill he wound up signing actually makes the fiscal situation worse, and it makes the recession worse by injecting more uncertainty into the mix. For example: [Health-Care Bill Surprise: 1099 Nightmare](http://www.businessweek.com/smallbiz/content/may2010/sb20100526_855178.htm) > [@](#): > > Anyone who makes it to page 737 of the massive health-care bill approved by Congress in March will find a three-paragraph section that has nothing to do with hospitals, doctors, or drugs. The provision, inserted by Democrats on the Senate Finance Committee to help offset the cost of the bill, requires companies to report to the IRS payments of more than $600 a year to any vendor. > … > The new rule, set to take effect in 2012, will expand such reporting to include payments to companies, and for goods as well as services. That means businesses will need to get tax ID numbers and file forms for almost all suppliers—and track all their small expenses to see which vendors meet the threshold. Spend $600 on cell-phone service, at FedEx, or fueling up at the local gas station? Better get their tax ID number. Buy new computers? File a 1099. “It’s going to be a compliance nightmare,” says Rob Seltzer, an accountant in Beverly Hills, Calif. He figures he would go from filing two 1099s to 15. > > Seltzer is on the low end. The IRS says about 85 million 1099-MISC forms are filed each year, and that could jump significantly under the new law. The National Small Business Assn. estimates that the average company will have to file 95 of the forms under the measure, up from fewer than 20 today. Having run a small business, I understand just what a burden that can be. It’s no big deal for big companies, but if you’re a sole proprieter or a small family business, it’s an onerous burden. And that’s just one paragraph in a 2,000 page bill. You can expect more of that as the bill continues to be turned into law by the bureaucrats - a process that will take several years. Also, he has thrown billions of dollars at special interests at a time when the budget is imploding. 8 billion for high speed rail. 26 billion to bail out teachers (half of which came in cuts for food stamps). 3 billion for ‘community development’. And so it goes. He went on a huge discretionary spending spree. Then there’s other regulation. He put a moratorium on offshore drilling. 25,000 jobs lost. The CARD act drove up interests rates on credit cards - also anti-stimulative. The lead in toys act wiped out 200 million dollars in used toys for children. The financial reform package is full of job-killing line items. For example, the new finance regulations demand that [minority and gender equity rules be followed](http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0710/40313_Page2.html): > [@](#): > > At its core, the section establishes at least 20 new Offices of Minority and Women Inclusion across the Treasury Department, Federal Reserve, Securities and Exchange Commission and other finance-related agencies. It orders the directors of these offices to develop standards that “ensure, to the maximum extent possible, the fair inclusion and utilization of minorities, women, and minority-owned and women-owned businesses in all business and activities of the agency at all levels, including in procurement, insurance, and all types of contracts.” > > This applies to “services of any kind,” including investment firms, mortgage banking firms, asset management firms, brokers, dealers, underwriters, accountants, consultants and law firms, the legislation states. Every contractor and subcontractor must now certify that their workforces reflect a “fair inclusion” of women and minorities. So how onerous is this going to be? > [@](#): > > The government still must write the rules for the new diversity standards before deciding which contractors meet the bar and which fall short. And there’s the rub. Like the health care bill, the financial bill is over 2,000 pages long. Both bills are filled with little time bombs like this. But no one knows exactly how to comply with them or what they will cost, because now that the bills have passed it takes years for the bureaucracy to work through them and turn them into specific regulations. That has added a whole lot of uncertainty to the business world, on top of all the uncertainty generated by current economic conditions. If you owned a firm that provided any kind of financial service to the government, would you hire new employees right now? Or would you wait to find out if your company is going to be excluded from future contracts because you don’t meet the requirements for gender and minority equity? Any one of these regulations isn’t going to have a gigantic impact. But it’s like the death of a thousand cuts. If you’re a business owner, and you’re in an environment where almost every day you read an article in the business press about a new government regulatory move that may or may not cost you a lot of money, it has a real chilling effect on your confidence, on your ability to raise capital, and on your ability to make long-term business plans. Under those circumstance, you just hunker down, book your profits, and hope for better political winds to come along in the future. That was Cramer’s point in his Op-Ed: Jobs aren’t coming back until the Democrats get punted out of the Congress, because business no longer trusts them to make sane rules. The Democrats also bailed out of Congress without passing a budget, because they didn’t want to have the debate before the election. So no one knows what is going to be funded, no one knows if the Bush tax cuts will be extended, etc. For purely partisan reasons, the Democrats left the American business community hanging at a time when uncertainty is already a well-known factor in the recession. Furthermore, because Obama has stacked his regulatory agencies with ideologues, they keep making crazy proposals for rulemakings which scare the crap out of everyone. The EPA now claims the right to regulate CO2 as a pollutant. There was a proposed rulemaking to ban lead bullets. The coastal service keeps making noises about cutting off recreational fishing in many areas where it’s allowed. There’s still talk about pushing through Card Check and Cap and Trade in a lame duck session of Congress. Then there’s the thing he hasn’t done - Canada’s government understands that trade is key, and has been working feverishly to sign trade agreements with countries throughout the world. In the U.S., trade has fallen off the radar. Many of the agreements that were moving forward under Bush have stalled out. Obama has implemented protectionist policies in the stimulus package that have caused blowback. His rhetoric has angered trading partners. The original problem was not of Obama’s making. But almost every major action he’s taken as president has made the problem worse. That’s why he’s lost confidence in the business community, including many of his previous supporters. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-why-do-you-hate-america/552037/115 "2010-08-31T19:16:41Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > > > In this case, it was central to my point. After all, it’s not news if three Obama opponents publish op-eds criticizing him. It IS news if his former supporters are doing it. It’s an indication that their complaints aren’t partisan, but based on real disagreements. > > I just don’t get this. Where I come from on the left, this is perfectly normal and expected. You’re simply not supposed to be a reflexive apologist for a politician you might have supported before he was actually elected. We eat our own all the time. But on this board it matters. Because if I post any quotes from anyone who _wasn’t_ an Obama supporter, it just gets shouted down because it’s ‘partisan’. So if you want to make a point, you have to find someone who actually supported Obama so you can show that it’s a real belief and not just partisanship. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-why-do-you-hate-america/552037/116 "2010-08-31T19:17:14Z")
> [@montag01](#): > > I simply dislike non-U.S. citizens talking about our leaders, regardless of party. Everyone’s entitled to express an opinion about another country or their policies, of course. One may hear about Uganda’s proposed legislation to kill gays, for example, and feel the need to blast it or debate it in a post. > > But if damn near all you do is talk about one particular country and its leadership all day, as Sam Stone’s post clearly indicates he does, then one may reasonably ask why this person doesn’t put his money where his mouth is, do the hard work of earning citizenship, and get a real stake in the debate. It’s certainly understandable why someone would want to talk American politics on a board dominated by American citizens, who aren’t likely to know (or care) about what goes on in Canada. But after awhile most citizens of a country, regardless of political party, will get _a little_ tired of a non-U.S. citizen bashing their leaders’ positions from afar: because in the end, it’s really none of a Canadian’s goddamn business what the citizens of the United States choose to do with their own country, and many of us would prefer not to hear jeers from the non-participatory peanut gallery. One thing that few Americans realize is the level to which US media dominates Canadian airwaves. We only have 3 tv stations (an one en francais). Think of it like being at a restaurant and sitting next to an extremely noisy table. It’s hard not to eventually get involved–particularly when things they talk about concern you, and what they’re saying is a lie or distortion. I find that Canada (as well as France and Europe) gets dragged into US politics pretty frequently. Because one side will use it as a positive example, the other side has to shit on it. I got blasted for criticizing US health care, but the reason I got involved in the first place was that conservatives were lying about Canada’s health care. Hannity/Limbaugh have no problem bitching about Canadian health care, so eventually a Canadian is going to reply. The other thing to consider is that life in Canada is very slow and very boring. Our economy is fine, health care is adequate, taxes reasonable. So when it’s not hockey season we need something to talk about. Even our news agencies run out of stories and fill space with a story about Obama. In the end, we just want to be included, is that so bad? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-why-do-you-hate-america/552037/117 "2010-08-31T19:19:52Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > > > In this case, it was central to my point. After all, it’s not news if three Obama opponents publish op-eds criticizing him. It IS news if his former supporters are doing it. It’s an indication that their complaints aren’t partisan, but based on real disagreements. > > I just don’t get this. Where I come from on the left, this is perfectly normal and expected. You’re simply not supposed to be a reflexive apologist for a politician you might have supported before he was actually elected. We eat our own all the time. **Sam** : But by making it central to your point, you change the argument from the “point” to the people. Like I said, it’s an appeal to authority. Then one wonders what % of “strong Obama supporters” agree, and how the hell could we even know that? There is certainly a case to be made that the business climate has more uncertainty in it now than 2 years ago, but there are lots of reasons for that, some of which have nothing to do with Obama. But we could focus on the ones that do, and get into the nitty-gritty of it. Leave the personalities out. **Maeglin** : I think you’re missing the point. Sam is simply saying that their arguments carry more weight than, say, George Will’s. It’s not an indictment of liberals. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-why-do-you-hate-america/552037/118 "2010-08-31T19:26:09Z")
> [@Finagle](#): > > > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > > > Actually, the ‘real reason’ for this thread appears to be that I “hate America” because I’m Canadian and talk about American politics all the time. So actually, the people giving me grief for being Canadian are right on point. > > Meh. All one-trick ponies are eventually fucking annoying, and your tricks weren’t all that amusing when the circus first came to town. Try starting some threads that don’t distill down to “You guys suck.” and maybe you’ll be worth reading. You know, I have over 22,000 posts on this board. In the last couple of weeks, I’ve posted long messages on art appreciation, SETI, office design, paying for college, the ground zero mosque (my position is against the Republicans, you might note), guitar playing, the Ford Escape, Futurama, Dell, Poker, OMNI magazine, web site design, “Mad Men”, WWII, and other topics. So you can screw off - you and the one trick pony you rode in on. Now, if you’d accused me of not having a life, you’d have a point. ---
**Author:** ![George\_Kaplin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3e96dc/32.png) [@George\_Kaplin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/George_Kaplin)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-why-do-you-hate-america/552037/119 "2010-08-31T19:27:31Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > What the hell is with the Koch brothers? Have you guys been handed a new script or something? I’d never heard of these guys until a couple of weeks ago, and now every time a liberal opens his mouth he’s got a Koch in it. For this alone, you win the thread 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2010, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-why-do-you-hate-america/552037/120 "2010-08-31T19:31:43Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > **Sam** : But by making it central to your point, you change the argument from the “point” to the people. Like I said, it’s an appeal to authority. Then one wonders what % of “strong Obama supporters” agree, and how the hell could we even know that? There is certainly a case to be made that the business climate has more uncertainty in it now than 2 years ago, but there are lots of reasons for that, some of which have nothing to do with Obama. But we could focus on the ones that do, and get into the nitty-gritty of it. Leave the personalities out. If the point you’re making is that the business community is worried about Obama’s policies, and that businessmen believe that Obama’s policies are hurting rather than helping, you have to quote those people. And if you want to quote anyone around here, it sure helps if they were once an Obama supporter. Because if they weren’t, anything they have to say will be dismissed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-why-do-you-hate-america/552037.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sam-stone-why-do-you-hate-america/552037.md?page=7)