# Samantha Bee's "Feckless Cunt" comment. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 31, 2018, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samantha-bees-feckless-cunt-comment/815214 "2018-05-31T19:08:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2018, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samantha-bees-feckless-cunt-comment/815214/141 "2018-06-02T00:16:31Z")
There is no double standard. If the right wants her fired go ahead and call a boycott, nothing is standing in the way. In both cases the outcome will be determined by the level of outrage the comment produces and how it impacts the advertisers and owners. But Sam B isn’t going to lose any viewers because righties don’t like it because righties don’t watch. It’d be like the left boycotting Fox News, why would they care? Their outrage isn’t really gonna make a difference. That’s not a double standard, that’s demographics. It’s the actual viewers that need to be outraged, not snowflakes who raised not a peep when trump was dropping F bombs during the campaign or calling innocent people rapists. Hard to hold the moral high ground when you didn’t care about that racism or those slur attacks. He spent years broadcasting a racist lie about a sitting president’s birth details. Y’all didn’t have anything to say then so it’s kinda hard to take y’all seriously now. Ooh, suddenly offensive language is giving the right the vapours! ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2018, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samantha-bees-feckless-cunt-comment/815214/142 "2018-06-02T00:19:58Z")
The right has: President “Grab Them Right By The Pussy” doesn’t like the mysoginistic (not his word, too many syllables and letters) way in which his daughter (who he’d like to fuck) was described. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2018, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samantha-bees-feckless-cunt-comment/815214/143 "2018-06-02T00:30:16Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I don’t disagree with that. But by what standard do we judge and punish speech with public outcry? The difference between now and a decade ago is that what happened locally was local. Now that may be good and that may be bad, it’s hard to say. What I can say is that the speed and reach of modern communications has made the “consequences” for the utilization of freedom of expression awfully capricious. I don’t think you can create a universal standard for this sort of thing. Everyone’s going to have different things that they consider okay or not okay, and everyone has an equal right to voice their displeasure with what other people are doing. I don’t think you can reasonably say to someone, “You have to be as offended by the word ‘cunt’ as you are by the word ‘nigger,’ or you don’t get to voice your opinion.” > [@](#): > > Good points. Which I agree with. Bigotry is a state of mind not necessarily an action. Let’s say a black man called another black man an ape. Would that mean that the black man is racist and hates black people in general? It depends on the state of mind of the speaker does it not? Sure. And while it’s not possible to know the contents of another person’s mind, we can make some pretty reasonable assumptions based on what they say or do, and the context in which they say it. A white guy in a white robe standing in front of a burning cross using the word “nigger” is a very different context than when its used between two black people who are friends with each other. The former, it’s pretty clearly being used out of racial animus. The latter, obviously not. Given Barr’s over all history, I think it’s fairly clear that she has problems with non-white people. When she called Valerie Jarret an ape, I think there’s sufficient evidence (her history of using that particular slur against black people, her use of other racial slurs, her general comments about other racial minorities) that it was racially motivated. When Samantha Bee called Ivanka Trump a cunt, I think there’s sufficient evidence (her own gender, her general support for feminism) that she’s not a misogynist. So, I’m okay with Barr being punished more harshly than Bee, because I’m okay with racists being punished more severely than non-misogynists. I do not see how this constitutes a double standard. > [@](#): > > Do I think Samantha Bee is a misogynist because of the usage of “cunt?” I’m not sure what’s in her head. By the standards here I think it would be but I have a hard time with the concept that a particular expression is intrinsically bigoted. I think context matters. Otherwise, 99% of rap is racist. Which is exactly the argument you’ve been fighting against: context matters, and a white person calling a black person an ape is a very different context from a woman calling another woman a cunt. > [@](#): > > Anyways, I don’t see what’s so difficult about holding people to the same standards. If we, as a society, are punishing offensive expressions than be consistent. Don’t give pet categories of people indulgences. Otherwise, we are going to be, as a society, in an ever escalating battle to find something to be offended about and use that as a weapon on those that are perceived to be part of a competing ideological tribe. Wait, what happened to “I think context matters?” ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2018, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samantha-bees-feckless-cunt-comment/815214/144 "2018-06-02T01:45:59Z")
I’m flabbergasted that anyone needs the difference between “cunt” and calling a black person an _ape_ to be explained. As I tried to get across earlier, “cunt” falls into the broad category of “words meaning that someone is a shitty person”. It’s a word that describes someone with an unpleasant personality, or characteristics that the person using the insult _perceives_ to be unpleasant. Calling another person after an animal is one of the worst things you can do to someone of a different ethnic group - it’s part of a very long and nasty legacy of dehumanization that has been used to justify horrific atrocities for thousands of years. It’s not comparable. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2018, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samantha-bees-feckless-cunt-comment/815214/145 "2018-06-02T02:09:49Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I think an important step in equality is actually holding people to equal standards not different but politically convenient standards. And I think an important step in not being an idiot is realizing that racially charged comparisons have different connotations when the target has more melanin than milk. Especially, when attempting to pass off said comparison in order to attack a liberal comedian. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2018, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samantha-bees-feckless-cunt-comment/815214/146 "2018-06-02T02:12:26Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > A slur directed at a woman by a woman differs from a slur directed at a woman by a man, or one directed at a black by a white. We live in a status hierarchy in which some birth-traits put you at the top of the heap and other traits put you further down. That doesn’t mean that those birth-traits are _genuinely_ superior–just that our society treats them as such. But those classifications–white, male, Christian, hetero, etc.–supply their holder with an unearned status conferred at birth. > > So when a man insults a woman he’s punching down. When a white insults a black, he (or she) is punching down. > > When Sam Bee uses a vulgar insult about another (white) woman, she’s not punching down. > > When Roseanne Barr uses a comparison to an ape about a black person, she IS punching down. (Despite the obvious fact that one Valerie Jarrett is worth a gross of Roseanne Barrs.) > > Cries of “double standard” make sense only for comparing like with like: two instances of racial insult in which both parties are punching down; two instances of vulgar language in which both parties are punching sideways; etc. > > What we have here does not justify the use of the term “double standard” by persons of integrity. (Of course that won’t stop the integrity-challenged from trying.) > > That’s the issue in a nutshell. Or in other words: the right has nothing, no matter how loudly they try to make it ‘something.’ That is ridiculous. Why is it high status to be a man, or to be white? That is a racist and sexist idea. The idea that Barr is punching down is ridiculous. Firstly because she was not punching, she was making a joke. Jokes are not punches. Secondly, Barr is the daughter of poor Russian immigrants. She has been diagnosed with multiple personality disorder which is usually the result of severe childhood trauma. She had a baby at 17 and ran away at 18. Valerie Jarrett’s parents were a wealthy physician and an educator who attended Sarah Lawrence college. She attended a prestigious prep school, then Stanford, and then got her JD at Michigan. She was one of the most powerful politicians in the country as the principal advisor to Obama. To say that she is beneath Barr is crazy. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2018, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samantha-bees-feckless-cunt-comment/815214/147 "2018-06-02T03:13:16Z")
Whatever, man, you don’t call black people apes. You just don’t. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2018, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samantha-bees-feckless-cunt-comment/815214/148 "2018-06-02T04:16:01Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > A slur directed at a woman by a woman differs from a slur directed at a woman by a man, or one directed at a black by a white. We live in a status hierarchy in which some birth-traits put you at the top of the heap and other traits put you further down. That doesn’t mean that those birth-traits are _genuinely_ superior–just that our society treats them as such. But those classifications–white, male, Christian, hetero, etc.–supply their holder with an unearned status conferred at birth. > > So when a man insults a woman he’s punching down. When a white insults a black, he (or she) is punching down. > > When Sam Bee uses a vulgar insult about another (white) woman, she’s not punching down. > > When Roseanne Barr uses a comparison to an ape about a black person, she IS punching down. (Despite the obvious fact that one Valerie Jarrett is worth a gross of Roseanne Barrs.) > > Cries of “double standard” make sense only for comparing like with like: two instances of racial insult in which both parties are punching down; two instances of vulgar language in which both parties are punching sideways; etc. > > What we have here does not justify the use of the term “double standard” by persons of integrity. (Of course that won’t stop the integrity-challenged from trying.) > > That’s the issue in a nutshell. Or in other words: the right has nothing, no matter how loudly they try to make it ‘something.’ > [@Chisquirrel](#): > > And I think an important step in not being an idiot is realizing that racially charged comparisons have different connotations when the target has more melanin than milk. Especially, when attempting to pass off said comparison in order to attack a liberal comedian. Integrity challenged? Idiot? What ever happened to going high? ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2018, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samantha-bees-feckless-cunt-comment/815214/149 "2018-06-02T06:39:57Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Integrity challenged? Idiot? What ever happened to going high? Going high got Trump elected while Republicans threw feces. Going high has resulted in “teaching the controversy” putting oil industry hacks on the same footing as 97% of climate scientists. [I assume you railed against these guys too, right? Just point me where you decried the use of the slur.](https://www.facebook.com/TheOther98/photos/a.115969958413991.17486.114517875225866/2459323434078620/?type=3&theater) I didn’t call you an idiot. But you haven’t exactly shown yourself to be of high intellect, as you continue to defend the use of “ape” to define black people. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2018, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samantha-bees-feckless-cunt-comment/815214/150 "2018-06-02T08:25:03Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > They wouldn’t have gone low if it didn’t often work better than going high, though. The high road is the less traveled road for a reason. If you coordinate your travel on the high road so you’re directly over the baddies on the low road you can drop boulders on them. ---
**Author:** ![actualliberalnotoneofthose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e79b87/32.png) [@actualliberalnotoneofthose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/actualliberalnotoneofthose)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2018, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samantha-bees-feckless-cunt-comment/815214/151 "2018-06-02T08:45:13Z")
> [@Grrr](#): > > I’m sure this will seem like weak sauce to conservatives, but personally, I regard females using the C-word much in the same way as I see Black folks using the N-word. My wife disagrees with this and considers it sexist, comparable to the level of what Roseanne said and “not a word reclaimed by the victims” as other words have been. My thoughts are: I’m not really sure. I listened to what she had to say. Still not sure, but I get her point. She can’t say the word and is disgusted by it. I’m certainly not aware of any women who go around using it as an endearing term. I understand it’s a more common saying in the UK, but I’m not in the UK. We are 40s white people in the US Midwest. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2018, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samantha-bees-feckless-cunt-comment/815214/152 "2018-06-02T11:30:13Z")
Note: It’s not just “Whataboutism”. This follows a well established propoganda method. For example: Problem: Minorities are treated horribly, even killed, by police. Action: Kneel during the national anthem. Propaganda: Rant about patriotism. Do _not_ talk about The Issue being raised. The “why” must be avoided at all cost. For Samantha Bee: Problem: ICE is separating kids from parents. Putting a lot of them into foster care. Recently revealed that they lost (!) about 1500 of these kids in the past year. Action: Contrast to things IT has said and done. Propaganda: Focus on a phrase used by Bee. Do _not_ talk about The Issue being raised. The “why” must be avoided at all cost. It is really, really sad and amazing how easily people can be lead by the nose away from talking about and understanding serious problems by these expert propaganda artists. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2018, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samantha-bees-feckless-cunt-comment/815214/153 "2018-06-02T13:00:56Z")
[Moderating] On reflection, this thread might have started as being about an entertainer (Samantha Bee is an entertainer of some sort, right?), but it’s really more about what language is and is not acceptable for whom, which has a lot more scope. Moving from CS to GD. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2018, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samantha-bees-feckless-cunt-comment/815214/154 "2018-06-02T13:21:38Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > :dubious: None of those seems to have happened to Texas Republican Agriculture Commissioner Sid Miller who, as I linked above, tweeted that Hillary Clinton was a “cunt”… I’m going to briefly hijack this thread to mention that a friend of mine, Kim Olson, is running against this guy in November on the Democratic ticket. So if you live in Texas, vote for her. She’s ex-military and a centrist ( more so than me). She once told me a cool story about slipping Rick Perry a challenge coin when she received an award from him. It made me dislike Perry a little less. [https://votekimolson.org/](https://votekimolson.org/) ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2018, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samantha-bees-feckless-cunt-comment/815214/155 "2018-06-02T14:31:45Z")
> [@sciurophobic](#): > > or even “feckless future felon Ivanka.” Like the fate of [Gulnora Karimova](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulnara_Karimova), the Uzbek Ivanka. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2018, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samantha-bees-feckless-cunt-comment/815214/156 "2018-06-02T14:48:49Z")
Isn’t Feckless Cunt a mare running against Justify in the Belmont Stakes? \*sorry if I missed a previous racehorse name allusion somewhere in the first four pages of the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2018, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samantha-bees-feckless-cunt-comment/815214/157 "2018-06-02T15:22:33Z")
I’m pretty sure the biggest thing to come out of this incident will be everyone looking up what “feckless” means. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2018, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samantha-bees-feckless-cunt-comment/815214/158 "2018-06-02T16:54:26Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > Going high got Trump elected while Republicans threw feces. Going high has resulted in “teaching the controversy” putting oil industry hacks on the same footing as 97% of climate scientists. > > [I assume you railed against these guys too, right? Just point me where you decried the use of the slur.](https://www.facebook.com/TheOther98/photos/a.115969958413991.17486.114517875225866/2459323434078620/?type=3&theater) > > I didn’t call you an idiot. But you haven’t exactly shown yourself to be of high intellect, as you continue to defend the use of “ape” to define black people. No, that’s not true. I’m saying that special treatment based on race, gender, sexuality, etc. strikes me as not being equal. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2018, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samantha-bees-feckless-cunt-comment/815214/159 "2018-06-02T17:16:33Z")
> [@Grrr](#): > > Can you elaborate on this? Not being the one who said that, I’d just say for me that it is much worse to compare someone to an animal, especially an animal that has a long and racist history of being used to humiliate and disparage certain people of color, than it is to call another person a word with ugly, but not inhuman, connotations. ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2018, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samantha-bees-feckless-cunt-comment/815214/160 "2018-06-02T19:14:15Z")
ive watched the show and bee is just a Canadian Chelsea handler/brett butler type of comedian [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samantha-bees-feckless-cunt-comment/815214.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samantha-bees-feckless-cunt-comment/815214.md?page=9)