# Samclem, come on down! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 13, 2007, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samclem-come-on-down/392094 "2007-02-13T23:27:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2007, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samclem-come-on-down/392094/101 "2007-02-14T16:59:03Z")
[QUOTE=Vinyl Turnip] Well, divorced of its etymology, it is the same: an abbreviation consisting of the first syllable of the word. It’s a shame, from a linguistic standpoint, that endowing certain terms with the status of “slur” is robbing us of several otherwise perfectly good verbal shortcuts. (How else could one shorten, in a non-offensive way, “Nipponese” or “Japanese,” anyway? “Nippo” and “Jappa” sure doesn’t sound any better to my ears.) [/QUOTE] Divorced of it’s etymology it isn’t word-- it’s just a series of letters. It makes no sense at all to “divorce” a word from its etymology. Too bad there isn’t a short cut. What short cut do you use to describe Indians? How about Filipinos? Are you OK with “Flip”? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2007, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samclem-come-on-down/392094/102 "2007-02-14T17:06:32Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] Well, just a few days ago, when I discussed “Nigger Jim” in the context of Mark Twain’s novel _Huck Finn_. In that context, my usage is not racist. Just as in “The Yanks beat the Japs in WWII” the term “Jap” (or the term Yank) isn’t racist. It is being used in it’s proper historical context. Can we use “Nazi” to refer to the Stormtroopers and SS of the of the Third Reich? Does anyone object to that? The only time when “Jap” should be used is in it’s proper historical context, as refering to the Imperial Japanese of WWII. Jus like “Nazi” is used to refer to the SS and such of the same war- but we don’t call modern Germans Nazis. [/QUOTE] Oh dear god, have you been huffing paint thinner? “Jap” in its historical context, as you used it, is DEFINITELY racist, as the term back then was MEANT to be racist. Jesus. And the Nazis called THEMSELVES “Nazis”. It was the NAME of their freaking party, for crissakes. **Lib** , I think it’s more that “White” is just too damned vague-there are so many different groups of “white” people, that you really can’t come up with an all-encompassing slur. Now, if you were to use Kraut, Polack, Hunky, Bohunk, Mick, Dago, or Kike, then that’s different. ---
**Author:** ![FordPrefect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@FordPrefect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FordPrefect)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2007, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samclem-come-on-down/392094/103 "2007-02-14T17:09:00Z")
[QUOTE=Guinastasia] I was the one who reported said post. You cannot be that stupid. You have been on this board since 2003-if you don’t know that the word _Jap_ is a major slur, then you must be incredibly, insanely fucking stupid. [/QUOTE] I knew that reading Danny Orlis books 20+ years ago… ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2007, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samclem-come-on-down/392094/104 "2007-02-14T17:10:22Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Too bad there isn’t a short cut. [/QUOTE] Yes, I believe that’s what I just said. I didn’t say we _should_ ignore the etymology, simply that the etymology is what renders one acceptable and the other a slur, when they are otherwise identical constructions. [QUOTE=John Mace] What short cut do you use to describe Indians? How about Filipinos? Are you OK with “Flip”? [/QUOTE] Never heard the term before. Apparently it does exist, though. “Used by Filipino youth to describe those of Filipino descent,” according to the ever-accurate Wikipedia. Good question. _Should_ I be okay with that term? Does any slang term for an ethnic, racial, or national group become derogatory if I (as a non-member of that group) use it, even I don’t intend it as a slur? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2007, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samclem-come-on-down/392094/105 "2007-02-14T17:13:12Z")
[QUOTE=Guinastasia] And the Nazis called THEMSELVES “Nazis”. It was the NAME of their freaking party, for crissakes. [/QUOTE] Technically, the name of their party was ‘Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei’. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2007, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samclem-come-on-down/392094/106 "2007-02-14T17:53:59Z")
[QUOTE=Vinyl Turnip] It’s a shame, from a linguistic standpoint, that endowing certain terms with the status of “slur” is robbing us of several otherwise perfectly good verbal shortcuts. (How else could one shorten, in a non-offensive way, “Nipponese” or “Japanese,” anyway? “Nippo” and “Jappa” sure doesn’t sound any better to my ears.) [/QUOTE] Which raises the question: Why is any shortening necessary? ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2007, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samclem-come-on-down/392094/107 "2007-02-14T17:58:33Z")
[QUOTE=EddyTeddyFreddy] Which raises the question: Why is any shortening necessary? [/QUOTE] Well, you can’t bake a cake without it… ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2007, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samclem-come-on-down/392094/108 "2007-02-14T18:02:21Z")
[QUOTE=pravnik] Well, you can’t bake a cake without it… [/QUOTE] And dammit, then someone left it out in the rain! :mad: ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2007, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samclem-come-on-down/392094/109 "2007-02-14T18:09:55Z")
[QUOTE=samclem] **quartz**. It’s possible that I, in the US, and being a child of the WWII generation, am more sensitive to “Jap” as a slur. If I understand, you are in the UK, where it may not carry the same weight. But I think it pretty well is understood in the modern world as a slur. I only meant my note as a light chiding. Not a warning. [/QUOTE] [WWII?](http://orpheus.ucsd.edu/speccoll/dspolitic/pm/11216cs.jpg) He should have said “the Nips”. And check out the name of the cartoonist! ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2007, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samclem-come-on-down/392094/110 "2007-02-14T18:12:40Z")
[QUOTE=indierock82] Aside from this bringing up a vague memory from Clerks 2, I have a question. Are the “white” people on this board offended by being called a _cracker_? I’m not and don’t understand how that is the supposed equivalent of _nigger_. Just wondering. [/QUOTE] Cracker is of course a racial slur. But few think it packs the punch of “nigger”. ---
**Author:** ![Hal\_Briston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a9a28c/32.png) [@Hal\_Briston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hal_Briston)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2007, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samclem-come-on-down/392094/111 "2007-02-14T18:14:42Z")
[QUOTE=EddyTeddyFreddy] Of course, Jap stereotypes like that aren’t a problem these days. [Are they?](http://slantedeyes.blogspot.com/2006/04/takes-me-back-to-world-war-ii-anti-jap.html) [/QUOTE] Wow. Just, wow. That woman is a four-star, gold-foil dipshit. Let’s see, the bunny in the picture is offensive, because he’s pictured with buck teeth. Here’s a hint, lady: do a Yahoo Images search for “cartoon bunny”. In fact, [here you go](http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images?p=cartoon+bunny&fr=yfp-t-501&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8). Notice something about more than half of them? _Bunnies are drawn with buck teeth you fucking moron!_ What else do we have here? Ah, this is a good one – ‘“…when you open the card up, it says ‘Hoppy Easter,’ which is another derogatory phrase,” said Low’. How in the _fuck_ do you get “derogatory” out of “Hoppy Easter”?? It’s a kids joke that you’ll find on hundreds of Easter cards! Sweet mother of fuck, why are people so in love with being offended?? (end hijack) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2007, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samclem-come-on-down/392094/112 "2007-02-14T18:17:56Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] “Jap” is a derogatory word, because it originated as a derogatory term. Language doesn’t follow regular rules all the time, so pretending that “Jap” is the same as “Brit” is just ignorant. . [/QUOTE] Cite? I am pretty sure it originated as a way to shorten Jap, like Brit or Yank. But as been said here “Brit” _is_ a racial slur. Mild yes, but so is “Jap”. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2007, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samclem-come-on-down/392094/113 "2007-02-14T18:23:55Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] Cite? I am pretty sure it originated as a way to shorten Jap, like Brit or Yank. [/quote] There have already been cites in this thread. > [@](#): > > But as been said here “Brit” _is_ a racial slur. Mild yes, but so is “Jap”. You’ll never hear a Japanese person referring to himself as a Jap, but it’s common to hear Brits call themselves Brits. If you can’t comprehend the difference, then it’s because you don’t want to. Anything can be a racial slur, if it’s intended to be, but some words are used exclusively or primarily as racial slurs. Again, pretending not to understand that is simply celebrating one’s own ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2007, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samclem-come-on-down/392094/114 "2007-02-14T20:01:41Z")
[QUOTE=EddyTeddyFreddy] Which raises the question: Why is any shortening necessary? [/QUOTE] It isn’t “necessary,” but it seems to be a natural human tendency, the same way we favor contractions, nicknames, acronyms, etc. Either time is exceedingly precious or we are linguistically lazy, or both. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2007, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samclem-come-on-down/392094/115 "2007-02-14T20:40:36Z")
I’ll take “lazy” for $500, Alex. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2007, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samclem-come-on-down/392094/116 "2007-02-14T20:42:05Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Lemur, you’re too smart not to know this. “Jap” is a derogatory word, because it originated as a derogatory term. Would you use “Jap” in a business meeting? Language doesn’t follow regular rules all the time, so pretending that “Jap” is the same as “Brit” is just ignorant. You know better. [/QUOTE] Of course I wouldn’t use “Jap” in a business meeting, or while walking down the street. I wouldn’t say, “I got a new Jap motorcycle today”, nor would I say, "Y’know, those Japs over at Sony make some good electronics, " nor would I say, “Let’s go eat sushi over at the Jap restaurant on 39th,” nor would I say, “Take the package down to Bob…you’ll recognize him cause he’s the only Jap in the 3rd floor cubicle area,” nor would I say, “Kenji, how are you Japs over in the Tokyo office doing?” Fill in obligatory mouse, house, box, fox, and so on. But neither would I have any sort of visceral reaction to seeing a headling from 1945 like “JAPS SURRENDER!”. Nor would seeing someone use “Japs” in a message board discussion of WWII jump out at me. I understand language isn’t rational. But still, “Jap” seems more crude and ignorant than hateful. Yeah, ANY word can be used to as a racial slur. But “Jap” is pretty mild, at least to me. More on the order of “Mick” or “Honkey” rather than “Kike” or “Nigger”. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2007, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samclem-come-on-down/392094/117 "2007-02-14T20:46:41Z")
[QUOTE=Hal Briston] do a Yahoo Images search for “cartoon bunny”. In fact, [here you go](http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images?p=cartoon+bunny&fr=yfp-t-501&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8). [/QUOTE] What _I_ find offensive is how the third one down in the first column is using the wrong battery. Let’s do some _research_, people! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2007, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samclem-come-on-down/392094/118 "2007-02-14T21:38:09Z")
[QUOTE=Lemur866] I understand language isn’t rational. But still, “Jap” seems more crude and ignorant than hateful. Yeah, ANY word can be used to as a racial slur. But “Jap” is pretty mild, at least to me. More on the order of “Mick” or “Honkey” rather than “Kike” or “Nigger”. [/QUOTE] Ask any of your Japanese friends if “Jap” is a mild slur. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2007, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samclem-come-on-down/392094/119 "2007-02-14T21:38:31Z")
Ok, then, no “Japs”. We’ll cal them “_Evil, Mass murdering, Biological weapon using, vivisectionist, chemical weapon using, torturing, cannibalistic, mass raping, genocidal, war criminals_ of Japanese descent”. _Much_ better. > **[Japanese war crimes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_atrocities)** > > The Empire of Japan committed war crimes and crimes against humanity in many Asian-Pacific countries during the period of Japanese imperialism, primarily during the Second Sino-Japanese and Pacific Wars. These incidents have been described as "the Asian Holocaust". Some war crimes were committed by Japanese military personnel during the late 19th century, but most were committed during the first part of the Shōwa era, the name given to the reign of Emperor Hirohito. > Under Emperor Hirohito, the... There is no term that is too strong to use for these vile acts. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2007, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samclem-come-on-down/392094/120 "2007-02-14T21:43:50Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] Ok, then, no “Japs”. We’ll cal them “_Evil, Mass murdering, Biological weapon using, vivisectionist, chemical weapon using, torturing, cannibalistic, mass raping, genocidal, war criminals_ of Japanese descent”. _Much_ better. > **[Japanese war crimes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_atrocities)** > > Both before and during World War II, the Empire of Japan committed numerous war crimes and crimes against humanity across various Asian–Pacific nations, most notably during the Second Sino-Japanese and Pacific Wars. These crimes have been referred to as "the Asian Holocaust" or "Japan's Holocaust",: 13–14, 282, 294  as well as the "Rape of Asia".: 93  Most of these crimes occurred during the early part of the reign of Emperor Hirohito. Deaths are estimated at between 19 million and 30 The Imper... There is no term that is too strong to use for these vile acts. [/QUOTE] Thanks for sharing that link, **DrDeth**. Because, of course, the only reason people are objecting to the use of the word “Jap” is because of the sympathy they have for the military and government policies of Imperial Japan. Next up, Nathan Leopold and Richard Loeb teach us why it’s okay to use the word “kike.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samclem-come-on-down/392094.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samclem-come-on-down/392094.md?page=7)