# Samclem - why was the "How many US Presidents have killed someone" thread locked **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 2, 2007, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samclem-why-was-the-how-many-us-presidents-have-killed-someone-thread-locked/390556 "2007-02-02T16:37:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![intention](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e95f7d/32.png) [@intention](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/intention)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2007, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samclem-why-was-the-how-many-us-presidents-have-killed-someone-thread-locked/390556/61 "2007-02-04T08:43:51Z")
As the noted American humorist Will Rogers (himself a Cherokee) once said, “The United States never broke a treaty with a foreign government and never kept one with the Indians.” The Cherokee, along with several other tribes such as the Navajo, do indeed have oil under their lands. However, the US Government has cheated them out of the majority of the money due to them, and given them pennies on the dollar. The BIA (Bureau of Indian Affairs) has long been one of the most corrupt branches of the US Government. They are now facing the results of a class action lawsuit filed in 1999, which forced a government order to account properly for the money that has passed through their hands (the lawsuit is for $137 billion dollars). Of course, the accounting was inadequate, only covering the period since 1973. The various tribes have refused to accept the accounting, despite government pressure. As a result, a new class action [lawsuit](http://www.narf.org/pubs/pr/06trust.htm) was filed in December, not on behalf of individuals as was the original lawsuit, but on behalf of 250 tribes. This lawsuit seeks a proper accounting of _all_ of the records, not just the recent ones. As you know, I oppose getting upset or depressed about things that happened years ago. But this is a current, ongoing ripoff, and a huge disgrace for the country. It is also an opportunity for the US to balance the scales a bit. Me, I sincerely hope the plaintiffs win, and win big. w. ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2007, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samclem-why-was-the-how-many-us-presidents-have-killed-someone-thread-locked/390556/62 "2007-02-04T09:09:08Z")
Glad to hear about the lawsuit…I’m not holding my breath, but I hope it works out. ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2007, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samclem-why-was-the-how-many-us-presidents-have-killed-someone-thread-locked/390556/63 "2007-02-04T09:25:02Z")
History is filled with instances of cruel acts like those mentioned here. I’ll admit I don’t get too worked up over them. Any culture or group of people can be just as brutal as the next, but the Europeans were more powerful. It sounds heartless but they were standing in the way of progress to the European point of view. I probably enjoy many benefits today because of the fact that people were driven off their land. It is important to recognize that these events did occur and take away the lessons of the past but to also move on and accept that the past is done. There is little point in maintaining such vehement rage at someone who died over 150 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2007, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samclem-why-was-the-how-many-us-presidents-have-killed-someone-thread-locked/390556/64 "2007-02-04T10:42:04Z")
[QUOTE=pool] History is filled with instances of cruel acts like those mentioned here. I’ll admit I don’t get too worked up over them. Any culture or group of people can be just as brutal as the next, but the Europeans were more powerful. It sounds heartless but they were standing in the way of progress to the European point of view. I probably enjoy many benefits today because of the fact that people were driven off their land. It is important to recognize that these events did occur and take away the lessons of the past but to also move on and accept that the past is done. There is little point in maintaining such vehement rage at someone who died over 150 years ago. [/QUOTE] Fine. Take him off the damn money and stop teaching my kid he’s a hero and I’ll quit bitching. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2007, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samclem-why-was-the-how-many-us-presidents-have-killed-someone-thread-locked/390556/65 "2007-02-04T10:43:57Z")
[QUOTE=pool] It sounds heartless but they were standing in the way of progress to the European point of view. [/quote] Or as he put it, there was an “Indian problem”. > [@](#): > > There is little point in maintaining such vehement rage at someone who died over 150 years ago. One might say that to Badchad or Pseudotriton Ruber Ruber with respect to their rage at Jesus. But they might answer that His legacy outlives him, and that after two thousand years, there is still much to rage against. We were deprived of our sacred land. Our possessions. Our way of life. There are cousins we were meant to have and never will. There was a great nation that has been castrated. All the life was sucked out of our culture. Intention has said that Indian Removal preserved our culture. He is a fool. We used to dance in praise of the spirit. We dance now as a sideshow for white people. We used to make our pottery and our jewelry for trade with one another. We make them now so you can buy trinkets from ghettos. We used to invent alphabets. Now we invent casino games. Preserved our culture my ass. ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2007, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samclem-why-was-the-how-many-us-presidents-have-killed-someone-thread-locked/390556/66 "2007-02-04T11:07:51Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by **Liberal** > We were deprived of our sacred land. Our possessions. Our way of life. What’s with this “we” stuff, what were you (not ancestors) personally deprived of? > [@](#): > > There are cousins we were meant to have and never will. Apparently is wasn’t meant to happen then. > [@](#): > > All the life was sucked out of our culture. > > Intention has said that Indian Removal preserved our culture. He is a fool. We used to dance in praise of the spirit. We dance now as a sideshow for white people. We used to make our pottery and our jewelry for trade with one another. We make them now so you can buy trinkets from ghettos. We used to invent alphabets. Now we invent casino games. > > Preserved our culture my ass. Hey whats wrong with making money from a casino? Do you view your culture as actually dead? It isn’t really completely if you carry on some traditions. All cultures at some point will come to and end. ---
**Author:** ![intention](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e95f7d/32.png) [@intention](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/intention)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2007, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samclem-why-was-the-how-many-us-presidents-have-killed-someone-thread-locked/390556/67 "2007-02-04T11:18:59Z")
Liberal, thank you for your eloquent post. The forced removal of the Native Americans from the Southeast is a tragic part of the sordid history of how the settlers treated the inhabitants of North America. However, if you now dance for the white man instead of for the Spirit, I hardly think you can blame Andrew Jackson. There are tribes who never left their ancestral lands who do exactly the same thing … as do plenty of white people, for that matter. Who you dance for now, this very day, is _your_ choice and _your_ business, not any of ours, and certainly not Andrew Jackson’s. There are cousins I never had, because of World War I … but I don’t waste any hatred on the Germans because of that, or sit around and weep for the cousins I never knew. What on earth is the good of that? Me, I don’t dance for the white man, or for any other color of the human rainbow, and I never will. I dance for the Spirit, and I won’t change that for you, Andrew Jackson, or anyone else. I encourage everyone to do the same. w. ---
**Author:** ![intention](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e95f7d/32.png) [@intention](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/intention)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2007, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samclem-why-was-the-how-many-us-presidents-have-killed-someone-thread-locked/390556/68 "2007-02-04T11:24:00Z")
Without comment, here is Andrew Jackson’s view of the subject: > [@](#): > > "It gives me pleasure to announce to Congress that the benevolent policy of the Government, steadily pursued for nearly thirty years, in relation to the removal of the Indians beyond the white settlements is approaching to a happy consummation. Two important tribes have accepted the provision made for their removal at the last session of Congress, and it is believed that their example will induce the remaining tribes also to seek the same obvious advantages. > > The consequences of a speedy removal will be important to the United States, to individual States, and to the Indians themselves. The pecuniary advantages which it promises to the Government are the least of its recommendations. It puts an end to all possible danger of collision between the authorities of the General and State Governments on account of the Indians. It will place a dense and civilized population in large tracts of country now occupied by a few savage hunters. By opening the whole territory between Tennessee on the north and Louisiana on the south to the settlement of the whites it will incalculably strengthen the southwestern frontier and render the adjacent States strong enough to repel future invasions without remote aid. It will relieve the whole State of Mississippi and the western part of Alabama of Indian occupancy, and enable those States to advance rapidly in population, wealth, and power. It will separate the Indians from immediate contact with settlements of whites; free them from the power of the States; enable them to pursue happiness in their own way and under their own rude institutions; will retard the progress of decay, which is lessening their numbers, and perhaps cause them gradually, under the protection of the Government and through the influence of good counsels, to cast off their savage habits and become an interesting, civilized, and Christian community. > > What good man would prefer a country covered with forests and ranged by a few thousand savages to our extensive Republic, studded with cities, towns, and prosperous farms embellished with all the improvements which art can devise or industry execute, occupied by more than 12,000,000 happy people, and filled with all the blessings of liberty, civilization and religion? > > The present policy of the Government is but a continuation of the same progressive change by a milder process. The tribes which occupied the countries now constituting the Eastern States were annihilated or have melted away to make room for the whites. The waves of population and civilization are rolling to the westward, and we now propose to acquire the countries occupied by the red men of the South and West by a fair exchange, and, at the expense of the United States, to send them to land where their existence may be prolonged and perhaps made perpetual. Doubtless it will be painful to leave the graves of their fathers; but what do they more than our ancestors did or than our children are now doing? To better their condition in an unknown land our forefathers left all that was dear in earthly objects. Our children by thousands yearly leave the land of their birth to seek new homes in distant regions. Does Humanity weep at these painful separations from everything, animate and inanimate, with which the young heart has become entwined? Far from it. It is rather a source of joy that our country affords scope where our young population may range unconstrained in body or in mind, developing the power and facilities of man in their highest perfection. These remove hundreds and almost thousands of miles at their own expense, purchase the lands they occupy, and support themselves at their new homes from the moment of their arrival. Can it be cruel in this Government when, by events which it can not control, the Indian is made discontented in his ancient home to purchase his lands, to give him a new and extensive territory, to pay the expense of his removal, and support him a year in his new abode? How many thousands of our own people would gladly embrace the opportunity of removing to the West on such conditions! If the offers made to the Indians were extended to them, they would be hailed with gratitude and joy. > > And is it supposed that the wandering savage has a stronger attachment to his home than the settled, civilized Christian? Is it more afflicting to him to leave the graves of his fathers than it is to our brothers and children? Rightly considered, the policy of the General Government toward the red man is not only liberal, but generous. He is unwilling to submit to the laws of the States and mingle with their population. To save him from this alternative, or perhaps utter annihilation, the General Government kindly offers him a new home, and proposes to pay the whole expense of his removal and settlement." > > Citation: President Jackson’s Message to Congress “On Indian Removal”, December 6, 1830; Records of the United States Senate, 1789-1990; Record Group 46; Records of the United States Senate, 1789-1990; National Archives. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2007, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samclem-why-was-the-how-many-us-presidents-have-killed-someone-thread-locked/390556/69 "2007-02-04T11:51:03Z")
If I may speak as a “wandering savage”, fuck that blistering pustule-on-a-dead-buzzard’s-ass. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2007, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samclem-why-was-the-how-many-us-presidents-have-killed-someone-thread-locked/390556/70 "2007-02-04T14:25:31Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] If I may speak as a “wandering savage”, fuck that blistering pustule-on-a-dead-buzzard’s-ass. [/QUOTE] Now that description, I like! ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2007, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samclem-why-was-the-how-many-us-presidents-have-killed-someone-thread-locked/390556/71 "2007-02-04T15:56:10Z")
Am I going to have to make this more clear, folks? HITLER! HITLER, DAMNIT! Your defenses of Andy Jackson are the same ones that you’d give to Hitler and Stalin. “Well, the Jews that were missed by the Nazis are in the same place. And some of them survived the camps. And if your cousins died in the furnaces, I guess you weren’t meant to have them. Look! You have your own country now!” Do you understand the words that are coming from your own fingers? It’s not just a jewish thing, ‘Never Again’. It’s about the gypsies (who are still having problems), it’s about the indians, it’s about genocide unmentioned and forgotten. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2007, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samclem-why-was-the-how-many-us-presidents-have-killed-someone-thread-locked/390556/72 "2007-02-04T16:20:30Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] Where did I say the removal was right? [/quote] Was that in response to me? Because I certainly don’t think you were saying removal was right, and I’m sorry if it sounded otherwise. My beef is with your word “they” in the following quote: > [@](#): > > What I am saying is that it’s silly and hypocritical to fawn over the civilized Cherokee. They were as capable of being jackasses as anyone. They were as capable of genocidal acts as anyone. We don’t need to be comparing the evils of The Cherokee Race to the evils of The White Race (or the evils of Andrew Jackson). We need to be talking about the actions of **specific people** , not treating everyone in a group as a fungible commodity. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2007, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samclem-why-was-the-how-many-us-presidents-have-killed-someone-thread-locked/390556/73 "2007-02-04T16:36:37Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] We need to be talking about the actions of **specific people** , not treating everyone in a group as a fungible commodity. [/QUOTE] I agree. And yet we keep hearing how wonderfully peaceful and civilized “the Cherokee” were. I was merely offering a counterpoint. It is just as racist to ascribe positive attributes to a race as negative attributes. I was pointing out that the Cherokee as a people were not immune to the foibles that come with being humans. We are all _homo sapiens sapiens_, prone to acts of terrible violence and even genocide. The Cherokee are no different, as their history shows. We don’t need to infantilize the Cherokee to sympathize with their loss. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2007, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samclem-why-was-the-how-many-us-presidents-have-killed-someone-thread-locked/390556/74 "2007-02-04T16:41:54Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] We don’t need to infantilize the Cherokee to sympathize with their loss. [/QUOTE] I think at this point we agree, then. The post I first responded to sounded as if you were saying The Cherokee were no better than Jackson, and I was saying that I don’t think the two are comparable. If you were saying that the Cherokee were not all great people, then I entirely agree. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2007, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samclem-why-was-the-how-many-us-presidents-have-killed-someone-thread-locked/390556/75 "2007-02-04T16:51:23Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] We are all _homo sapiens sapiens_, prone to acts of terrible violence and even genocide. [/QUOTE] Prone? Sure. But I’m not complaining about what anyone was prone to do. If Bush were merely prone to acts of terrible incompetence, we would have found Bin Laden by now, we wouldn’t be hated by most of the world, and we wouldn’t be mired down in Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2007, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samclem-why-was-the-how-many-us-presidents-have-killed-someone-thread-locked/390556/76 "2007-02-04T18:04:33Z")
[QUOTE=E-Sabbath] Am I going to have to make this more clear, folks? HITLER! HITLER, DAMNIT! Your defenses of Andy Jackson are the same ones that you’d give to Hitler and Stalin. . [/QUOTE] So who used to live where you now live, what happened to them, and when are you giving them their land back? This isn’t Hitler and the Jews. This is the Prussians, or the Copts, or the Welsh, or the Saxons. If it’s Hitler and anybody, it’s Hitler and the Poles. It’s what happens whenever you have a strong expansionist country next to a small, weak one. The little one gets eaten, it’s people conquered and subjigated or expelled, and it’s a really big moral indulgence for you, who’s living on land acquired just that way, to criticize that acquisition. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2007, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samclem-why-was-the-how-many-us-presidents-have-killed-someone-thread-locked/390556/77 "2007-02-04T18:16:36Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing] This isn’t Hitler and the Jews. This is the Prussians, or the Copts, or the Welsh, or the Saxons. If it’s Hitler and anybody, it’s Hitler and the Poles. It’s what happens whenever you have a strong expansionist country next to a small, weak one. The little one gets eaten, it’s people conquered and subjigated or expelled, and it’s a really big moral indulgence for you, who’s living on land acquired just that way, to criticize that acquisition. [/QUOTE] Two differences: 1. If we’re judging something that happened in the past to dead people by dead people, we may use it as a way to inform and refine our own moral sensibilities without looking for a way to make reparations to corpses or to bring other corpses to justice. 2. Jackson operated in a government system that is currently in place (i.e., under the US Constitution), and he fucked that system over, mangling and mutilating it, through his defiance of the Supreme Court. Considering him a hero shows contempt to that current system–a system that, for all its flaws, does not deserve to be treated with Jacksonian contempt. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2007, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samclem-why-was-the-how-many-us-presidents-have-killed-someone-thread-locked/390556/78 "2007-02-04T19:24:49Z")
The Sint Sinck Indians? Well, village documentation says that we purchased the land from them and they moved up into the Connecticut River Valley. Back in 1685, by Fredrick Phillipse. Or do you mean when my family came over? Well, if you know American History any, at about the same time, we were killing them, and they were killing us, up north a ways. And marrying 'em, too. And, well, the Brits were on one side, with the Iroquois, and the French and their Algonquin allies… My father’s side was with the Brits. Technically. Irish, you understand. Hell, there’s a good chance that’s when we taught them how to scalp people. None of that matches ethnic cleansing, which is what Jackson did, against the law of the land. He attempted the destruction of a people, tearing them from their land and houses en masse. (Bet you didn’t think I knew the answer to that one.) ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2007, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samclem-why-was-the-how-many-us-presidents-have-killed-someone-thread-locked/390556/79 "2007-02-04T19:29:43Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] Two differences: 1. If we’re judging something that happened in the past to dead people by dead people, we may use it as a way to inform and refine our own moral sensibilities without looking for a way to make reparations to corpses or to bring other corpses to justice. [/quote] But that makes you the ultimate hypocrite, if you condemn an evil and then are willing to benefit from that evil. By accepting the benefits of an action, you’re justifying the action that was taken, and if you really believe the action is wrong, then you have a moral obligation not to benefit from it. > [@](#): > > 1. Jackson operated in a government system that is currently in place (i.e., under the US Constitution), and he fucked that system over, mangling and mutilating it, through his defiance of the Supreme Court. Considering him a hero shows contempt to that current system–a system that, for all its flaws, does not deserve to be treated with Jacksonian contempt. Well, it was Georgia that defied and showed contempt to the Supreme Court, not Jackson. The federal government wasn’t a party in any of them. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2007, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samclem-why-was-the-how-many-us-presidents-have-killed-someone-thread-locked/390556/80 "2007-02-04T19:35:39Z")
[QUOTE=E-Sabbath] None of that matches ethnic cleansing, which is what Jackson did, against the law of the land. He attempted the destruction of a people, tearing them from their land and houses en masse. [/QUOTE] So Phillipse signed a treaty with the Mohegans/Sint Sinck to get land, and Jackson signed a treaty with the Cherokee to get land. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samclem-why-was-the-how-many-us-presidents-have-killed-someone-thread-locked/390556.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samclem-why-was-the-how-many-us-presidents-have-killed-someone-thread-locked/390556.md?page=5)