# Same-sex marriage, second try **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [February 5, 2000, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-second-try/712 "2000-02-05T06:33:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![TubaDiva](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tubadiva/32/507_2.png) [@TubaDiva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TubaDiva)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2000, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-second-try/712/1 "2000-02-05T06:33:00Z")
We’re having some sort of technical problem with the “same sex” thread, you can’t read any of the replies after the one on the end of the first page, so I’ve alerted the techs, closed the thread, and started this new one. Please carry on from where the thread can be read. (Not copying the last one over because I don’t know what element of that thread’s gone bad and I don’t want to contaminate the new thread.) your humble TubaDiva Administrator The Straight Dope ---
**Author:** ![JillGat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9fc29f/32.png) [@JillGat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JillGat)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2000, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-second-try/712/2 "2000-02-05T15:23:00Z")
We seem to have lost a number of posts from this thread, too! Any way to find em? Jill ---
**Author:** ![JillGat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9fc29f/32.png) [@JillGat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JillGat)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2000, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-second-try/712/3 "2000-02-05T15:32:00Z")
From the first thread: [[Since lesbians are pretty much AIDS-free, and since the Supreme Court ruled just a few weeks ago that insurance companies could cap HIV and AIDS lifetime benefits at lower amounts than for other diseases, this is really not the reason.]] This was an appalling ruling, by the way, that many are fighting to overturn. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2000, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-second-try/712/4 "2000-02-06T06:57:00Z")
Jill, do you recall the participants in the one hilarious exchange related to the entire AIDS tragedy, when some pompous Pharisee came off with the line about AIDS being God’s condemnation on the gay community for their sinful sex lives, and the AIDS activist who rejoined that since Lesbians have a very low incidence of HIV, by his premise God must be very much in favor of Lesbian sex? ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2000, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-second-try/712/5 "2000-02-05T22:07:00Z")
> [@](#): > > This was an appalling ruling, by the way, that many are fighting to overturn. I don’t like the ruling, but I do believe it was legally correct. The appalling thing is the benefit cap policy itself. ---
**Author:** ![crosstudio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@crosstudio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crosstudio)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2000, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-second-try/712/6 "2000-02-06T00:22:00Z")
there’s no cap on how much money insurers can take from you before they have to stop. think about it. you have insurance for 20 years and you never get sick. at some point, shouldn’t they put a cap on your payments until you use some of the money you’ve given them??? ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2000, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-second-try/712/7 "2000-02-06T05:43:00Z")
As Ned Flanders said, insurance is a form of gambling. I’ll bet MetLife $1500 that my health will cost me $10000 this year. The sicker you are to begin with (smoker, HIV etc.) the closer the insurance company gets to even money (higher premiums). ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2000, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-second-try/712/8 "2000-02-07T16:13:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by The Ryan: > > Why? I would expect the percentage of homosexuals that have children to be much lower than the perecentage of heterosexuals with children, I would expect most homosexuals that have children to have done so with a heterosexual partner, and I would expect very few such children to end up in the care of a same-sex couple. I consider one percent to be a reasonable percentage of homosexuals that are raising children in a same-sex couple. That would give a range of 50k to 150k same-sex couples, given a range of 10M to 30M homosexuals. I think everyone seems to be talking out their collective butts. Does anyone have any actual census figures? I’m sure the 2000 census will give us a much better idea of the kinds of families there are in the country. > [@](#): > > Besides which, I don’t see any big Christian crusades against eating pork. That part of the Bible doesn’t seem to come up that much. But the part about homosexuality is brought up over and over again. Why? Because there is bigotry against homosexuals, and not against pork eaters. One of the best essays I ever read on Christian acceptance of homosexuality was a senior PhD research thesis that pointed out that, ok, let’s agree that the Bible says homosexuality is wrong. The Bible also says that women are property, slavery is okay, you must marry within the 12 tribes of Isreal, all the way through to a woman having her period must sacrifice two doves to the high priest. Bottom line? Jesus preached love. Esprix * * * Next time I want your opinion I’ll beat it out of you. ---
**Author:** ![Kyberneticist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kyberneticist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyberneticist)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2000, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-second-try/712/9 "2000-02-07T16:37:00Z")
Just one question. If some Cecil column touches a major nerve and racks up a hundred posts or so, does it at any point get promoted to “Great Debates?” ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2000, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-second-try/712/10 "2000-02-07T17:36:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by Kyberneticist: > > Just one question. If some Cecil column touches a major nerve and racks up a hundred posts or so, does it at any point get promoted to “Great Debates?” Don’t know what SDMB policy is, but if you’re referring to this particular topic, there is a “domestic partners” folder on the GD board, although it might not have had any posts on it lately, so you might have to go to the second page of topics to find it. Esprix * * * Next time I want your opinion I’ll beat it out of you. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2000, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-second-try/712/11 "2000-02-07T21:37:00Z")
Esprix posted 02-07-2000 10:13 AM > [@](#): > > ``` > quote: > > Originally posted by The Ryan: > > ``` > > […] I consider one percent to be a reasonable > percentage of homosexuals that are raising children in a same-sex couple. That > would give a range of 50k to 150k same-sex couples, given a range of 10M to > 30M homosexuals. > I think everyone seems to be talking out their collective butts. Does anyone have any > actual census figures? I’m sure the 2000 census will give us a much better idea of the > kinds of families there are in the country. Cecil **did** have census figures (or I think that they were census figures), but Otto said that the number was “obviously” false. I wasn’t claiming that I _know_ how many same-sex households there are; I was just saying that I don’t consider Cecil’s number to be farfetched. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2000, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-second-try/712/12 "2000-02-08T16:32:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by The Ryan: > > Cecil **did** have census figures (or I think that they were census figures), but Otto said that the number was “obviously” false. I wasn’t claiming that I _know_ how many same-sex households there are; I was just saying that I don’t consider Cecil’s number to be farfetched. My error - I haven’t re-read his post since the start of this discussion. Esprix * * * Next time I want your opinion I’ll beat it out of you. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2000, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-second-try/712/13 "2000-02-08T16:34:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Cecil **did** have census figures (or I think that they were census figures), but Otto said that the number was “obviously” false. Please don’t misquote me. What I said in response to Cecil’s figures was: > [@](#): > > 1. He cited no source for his 167,000 American same-sex households raising children, but a visit to the Lambda Legal Defense and Education Fund website finds a 1997 estimate of six to 14 million children with lesbian or gay parents. Even if you don’t accept that figure, simple math would seem to dictate that in a country with a gay population estimated at anywhere from 10 to 30 million, more than 167,000 same-sex couples are raising children. Still, how many children have to be deprived of legally married parents before it’s an injustice, and since marriage is not limited to mixed-sex couples based on their ability to procreate, what do children really have to do with the discussion anyway? To which Cecil replied that his figures were derived from census figures. I stated that I doubted not the accuracy of Cecil’s reportage but, among other things, the willingness of same-sex couples raising children to report this to the federal government. Children are routinely taken away from gay and lesbian parents and there are no federal civil rights protections for gay and lesbian people. Were I a gay parent I would think long and hard about reporting that fact. I did not say that the number were “obviously” anything. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2000, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-second-try/712/14 "2000-02-08T16:44:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by Kyberneticist: > **Just one question. If some Cecil column touches a major nerve and racks up a hundred posts or so, does it at any point get promoted to "Great Debates?"** Check out the thread on 360 degrees in a circle. It went off on a diatribe about Velikovsky. I begged for it to be sent to GD, but _nooooo_. 😉 (I’d post a link, but I don’t want anybody actually reviving the thread.) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2000, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-second-try/712/15 "2000-02-10T03:01:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by Otto: > **I did not say that the number were “obviously” anything.** In my mind, “simple math dictates that” = “obviously”. I guess that our minds do not work the same way. I suppose I should stick to people’s original wording. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2000, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-second-try/712/16 "2000-02-10T14:27:00Z")
> [@](#): > > In my mind, “simple math dictates that” = “obviously”. I guess that our minds do not work the same way. I suppose I should stick to people’s original wording. Especially if you’re going to present those words in quotation marks. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2000, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-second-try/712/17 "2000-02-10T15:05:00Z")
I just posted an update on the Vermont DP/SSM decision in the “Domestic Partners” folder in Great Debates, here: [http://www.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000901.html](http://www.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000901.html) The first paragraph reads: > [@](#): > > The Vermont House Judiciary Committee, charged with drafting legislation in response to the Vermont Supreme Court’s December 20 ruling that under the state constitution same-gender couples must have access to all the benefits of legal marriage, voted 7 - 3 on February 9 to design a parallel registered partnership for gays and lesbians rather than extend existing marriage law to include them, the Associated Press reported. Committee chair Representative Thomas Little (R-Sherburne) promised that new relationship would be “different than, broader than” domestic partnerships elsewhere in the U.S., because “It is clear to me that the will of the Committee is to initiate and work on a civil rights bill.” Openly gay Committee vice-chair William Lippert (D-Hinesburg) said, “I trust whatever next step we take collectively, we take in a continual step to dismantle institutional discrimination.” FYI. Esprix * * * Next time I want your opinion I’ll beat it out of you. ---
**Author:** ![JillGat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9fc29f/32.png) [@JillGat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JillGat)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2000, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-second-try/712/18 "2000-02-12T06:00:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by Irishman: > \*\* Check out the thread on 360 degrees in a circle. It went off on a diatribe about Velikovsky. I begged for it to be sent to GD, but _nooooo_. 😉 > > (I’d post a link, but I don’t want anybody actually reviving the thread.)\*\* I don’t generally move threads that begin as discussions of Cecil’s columns. And I never woulda moved that pesky 360 degrees thread… David woulda killed me. He would have had to read the whole damn thing, for one thing. Jill ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2000, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-second-try/712/19 "2000-02-14T19:42:00Z")
This is related to Cecil’s comments about the Vermont legislature and Supreme Court, from PlanetOut News, Saturday February 12 03:12 AM EST: > [@](#): > > Bill to Impeach VT High Court > > A bill to impeach the entire Vermont Supreme Court was introduced in the state legislature on February 10, charging that the bench violated the constitutional separation of powers by ordering the legislature in December to create equal access to the benefits of marriage for same-gender couples. State Representative Nancy Sheltra (R-Derby) read the bill to the full House on behalf of another dozen lawmakers, saying, “I feel very strongly that the power I have here was given to me by the people of the state of Vermont. The legislative branch is the people’s voice and when the judicial branch tries to subvert that power in a decision they’re overstepping their boundaries.” The measure also calls on the legislature to “ignore the Supreme Court’s usurpation of legislative authority” and to deny legal recognition to same-gender couples. Sheltra expects the bill to next be assigned to a committee… > > A number of other bills are pending in the Vermont House and Senate relating to the Baker ruling, including: a bill to extend the marriage law to include gay and lesbian couples; a bill to prohibit same-gender marriage within the state and to deny legal recognition to gay and lesbian marriages another state may someday perform; a constitutional amendment to override the state high court’s ruling; and two bills to create domestic partnerships. > > But the measure most likely to advance is the one being drafted by the House Judiciary Committee, which was given the assignment of responding to the Vermont Supreme Court ruling by agreement between the House and Senate. Its members refer to their draft as a “civil rights act for gay and lesbian families.” All eleven members of that Committee affirm the Vermont Supreme Court’s finding that the state constitution’s Equal Benefits Clause requires that same-gender couples have access to the benefits of marriage. They have reached a preliminary agreement that they are creating a parallel registered partnership relationship rather than amending the existing marriage law to include gay and lesbian couples… FYI… * * * Next time I want your opinion I’ll beat it out of you. ---
**Author:** ![Michael0916](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Michael0916](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael0916)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2000, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-second-try/712/20 "2000-02-26T21:11:00Z")
quote Still, how many children have to be deprived of legally married parents before it’s an injustice, and since marriage is not limited to mixed-sex couples based on their ability to procreate, what do children really have to do with the discussion anyway? end quote I would just like to remind you that there are plenty of children who’s parents are not legally married. Many of which never were married and never will be. You are very right though. What do children really have to do with the discussion anyway seeing as how men/women who can’t produce children are still allowed to marry.