# Same-sex marriage will have no negative impact on American society as a whole **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 25, 2009, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-will-have-no-negative-impact-on-american-society-as-a-whole/497593 "2009-05-25T18:58:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-will-have-no-negative-impact-on-american-society-as-a-whole/497593/41 "2009-05-25T21:53:50Z")
Devils Advocate: Gay marriage pleases my client… SATAN! ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-will-have-no-negative-impact-on-american-society-as-a-whole/497593/42 "2009-05-25T21:57:39Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Examples? EXAMPLES? It was pointed out over and over that said negative consequences would be two generations or so down the road, so any call for “examples” is ridiculous. Especially since no poster on your side could point in time, in ANY civilization, when SSM was legal, where we could then go back and see the long-term ramifications. The BEST you have a country or two that have had it legalized for 5 or 6 years. And, as was pointed out in that other thread, Denmark has civil unions, which I, representing the other side of the debate, was advocating. Even then, 15 years does not equal 40. Again, as was pointed out in that other thread. You suggested a very remote possibility that there _might,_ _just maybe_ be some long term negative effect for which there is zero amount of evidence, and almost the same amount of sound reasoning and logic, to support. You basically rehashed and reworded the same argument used against interracial marriage which has been shown to be completely false. {I’m aware you deny it} So, considering our own and others history of civil rights for minority groups there is evidence and reason to support SSM but none to denounce it. > [@](#): > > So, this was cited. It was also dealt with (see above). You might as well cite that clowns have big feet. Your cites do nothing to negate the claims made by the other (my) side. Your side has zero support for their claims. That being the case no negation is required. > [@](#): > > Fine. Your assertion is so noted. For what it is, just an assertion. An assertion with the backing of history and logical reasoning, in sharp contrast to yours. > [@](#): > > False. How do I know? Because I am a person who believes both that SSM will cause long-term negative effects AND that racial integration and voting rights for women are _good_ things. Of course, if you can prove this opinion of yours to be correct, I’d love to see that cite. So, I’m askiing for it. Even though you refuse to see it and acknowledge it as a civil rights issue it remains exactly that. The similarities in the arguments in opposition are easy to see and now, decades later ,we have the benefit of history to show us the fears that caused some to oppose civil rights for others were unfounded and false. All you’re doing is trying to cloak those unfounded fears in something that resembles a logical argument. > [@](#): > > Thanks for the assertion. Of course, I will now have to ask you for some evidence to back your assertion. Please point to ANY society in ANY time where SSM was even granted equal status, not to mention with no ill effects. As was pointed out in the other thread, even during times that homosexuality was much more accepted in a society, they never went that extra step. Never. So, your being able to guess what the long-term effects would have been is just that, a guess. Please show evidence to the contrary. I repeat, the guess that SSM will have no negative effect on society as a whole is backed by our history of struggle and civil rights which has consistently shown unfounded fears that formed the basis of resistance to extending equal rights to minorities were proved false repeatedly. That’s what the pro side has to support it’s assertion. What do you have to support yours? Anything? Anything at all? > [@](#): > > I’ll add that most, if not all, of the points I’ve made here were made by me in the other thread AND, withe great defense, by mswas, who is on YOUR side. repetition of flimsy arguments and empty assertions is not a great defense. That’s all I saw from both you and mswas in the other thread. The fact that some posters kept responding doesn’t add weight to your points. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-will-have-no-negative-impact-on-american-society-as-a-whole/497593/43 "2009-05-25T22:00:34Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Perhaps I’m unclear on the need to pander to loonies. Simple. There’s too many of 'em. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-will-have-no-negative-impact-on-american-society-as-a-whole/497593/44 "2009-05-25T22:09:40Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > Simple. There’s too many of 'em. Well, fuck 'em. They’ll die off soon enough. Just promote more pro-wrestling and monster-truck shows, get them back to their TV sets where they belong and put politics back into the hands of grown-ups. ---
**Author:** ![cwthree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@cwthree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cwthree)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-will-have-no-negative-impact-on-american-society-as-a-whole/497593/45 "2009-05-25T22:23:38Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Because I am a person who believes both that SSM will cause long-term negative effects AND that racial integration and voting rights for women are _good_ things. I know I commented on this before, but I have another observation. Unless **magellan01** is at least 100 years old (i.e., old enough to have been paying attention in 1920), his opinion that women’s suffrage is a good thing is of trivial significance. Assuming he’s American-born, women have always been able to vote in his world. **magellan01** would have to be at least 65 (i.e., old enough to have been paying attention in 1954) to have observed the controversy surrounding the collapse of _legal_ racial segregation. It’s likely that racial segregation has never been _legal_ in his world, either. Why am I bringing this up? I’m bringing it up because in every thread in which he participates, **magellan01** tells us that allowing same-sex couples to be legally united and to call it “marriage” would be a serious blow to society. He tells us that it would damage the ancient and important concept of marriage, and that this in turn would be a Very Bad Thing for people. And in every thread where he says this, other posters say, (I’m paraphrasing), “OK, this is worth discussing. Same-sex marriage would make a lot of people really happy, and most of us here don’t think anyone would be harmed by it. But if you believe it’s got the potential to cause damage, let’s hear your case.” Then they sit back, waiting for **magellan01** to describe what he thinks might happen if same sex couples are allowed to call their legal unions “marriage.” And then, of course, nothing happens. I don’t mean, “nothing bad happens, society goes on as normal.” I mean, magellan01 has nothing to offer, except perhaps he assertion that he already explained himself elsewhere (but he can never say where). So here’s what I think is going on. **magellan01** is same kind of person who didn’t like women’s suffrage (not sure why, it just didn’t seem right) or desegregation (not sure why, it probably just would have seemed wrong somehow). The only difference is that he’s actually living through same-sex marriage. What’s my proof? I don’t have 100% proof, of course, since I don’t have **magellan01** ’s head and a can opener right here. But I can observe that in all of these threads and posts, he’s never been able to tell, _even in the most general of terms_, just what he things will happen if same-sex marriage becomes a reality in the United States. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-will-have-no-negative-impact-on-american-society-as-a-whole/497593/46 "2009-05-25T22:34:04Z")
**cwthree** , I’ve asked you a few times now to back up the assertions you’ve made in your OP. Please refer to Post #6. Another poster ventured a few answers, but I find them inadequate. Since you’re the one who made them, I really think it falls to you so back them up. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-will-have-no-negative-impact-on-american-society-as-a-whole/497593/47 "2009-05-25T22:36:03Z")
> [@black\_rabbit](#): > > I want to eat a sandwich. > > Though, now that I think about it, eating my sandwich could have horrible unintended consequences several generations hence. > > Oh, man, contemplating the holocaust that could be visited upon my hypothetical offspring if I eat a sandwich right now is actually making me break out in to a cold sweat. > > I think I’m just going to sit here and whimper instead. No sandwich for me. No sir. Just hold the tomatoes and you’ll be fine. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-will-have-no-negative-impact-on-american-society-as-a-whole/497593/48 "2009-05-25T22:40:27Z")
**magellan01** , Could you please give one example of a negative consequence that would occur (either in the long or short term), if SSM was made legal throughout the USA. Thank you in advance. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-will-have-no-negative-impact-on-american-society-as-a-whole/497593/49 "2009-05-25T22:41:35Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, fuck 'em. They’ll die off soon enough. Just promote more pro-wrestling and monster-truck shows, get them back to their TV sets where they belong and put politics back into the hands of grown-ups. Ha! And we’ll also have to get TBN on HiDef. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![cwthree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@cwthree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cwthree)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-will-have-no-negative-impact-on-american-society-as-a-whole/497593/50 "2009-05-25T22:43:13Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > **cwthree** , > > I’ve asked you a few times now to back up the assertions you’ve made in your OP. Please refer to Post #6. Another poster ventured a few answers, but I find them inadequate. Since you’re the one who made them, I really think it falls to you so back them up. > > Thank you. I’ve made and backed up the same assertions elsewhere (since you’re so fond of invoking this privilege for yourself, I shall use it here). Kindly review the other thread(s) in which you and I have played. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-will-have-no-negative-impact-on-american-society-as-a-whole/497593/51 "2009-05-25T22:44:18Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > **cwthree** , > > I’ve asked you a few times now to back up the assertions you’ve made in your OP. Please refer to Post #6. Another poster ventured a few answers, but I find them inadequate. Since you’re the one who made them, I really think it falls to you so back them up. > > Thank you. I think it really stands out that you deflect, deflect, deflect instead of engaging with evidence. You have no evidence that SSM will hurt society. You simply have your gut instinct. So what? You’ve been asked perhaps dozens or hundreds of times for some evidence of the detriment of SSM to society. Without evidence that it is a threat, there is no reason to deny the right to millions of people. At least that is my assertion. Please tell me why, without any reason to believe it would be a detriment to society it would be a good idea to not allow gays to marry. Sum up your case here or stop posting here. Please? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-will-have-no-negative-impact-on-american-society-as-a-whole/497593/52 "2009-05-25T22:44:38Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > **cwthree** , > > I’ve asked you a few times now to back up the assertions you’ve made in your OP. Please refer to Post #6. Another poster ventured a few answers, but I find them inadequate. Since you’re the one who made them, I really think it falls to you so back them up. > > Thank you. Come off it. You never back up anything you say. It’s your turn. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-will-have-no-negative-impact-on-american-society-as-a-whole/497593/53 "2009-05-25T22:52:03Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > **magellan01** , Could you please give one example of a negative consequence that would occur (either in the long or short term), if SSM was made legal throughout the USA. I don’t think he knows of any. He’s saying is that if SSM was made legal throughout the USA, it’s possible that there might be some currently unforeseeable negative effect in several generations. This is clearly a true statement. It is, however, a trivial statement. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-will-have-no-negative-impact-on-american-society-as-a-whole/497593/54 "2009-05-25T22:52:32Z")
Quoth **EJsGirl** : > [@](#): > > 1. I can’t imagine it would result in more gay children (which I’ve heard from people as an argument against)- all the gay people I know are the products of two heterosexual parents. So hetero parenting causes teh gay, right? If anything, I would expect that societal acceptance of homosexuality would decrease the number of gay children. Sexuality seems to be at least partly genetic (there is a higher correlation of sexuality between identical twins than there is between fraternal twins), so gay people having biological children would naturally lead to an increased chance of those children being gay. In the situation as it is now, many gays pass as straight so as to avoid the social stigma attached to homosexuality, even going so far as to marry members of the opposite sex and have children. If, however, homosexuality were fully socially acceptable, those same people would be entering into same-sex marriages, and their children, if any, would be adopted and not carry their parents’ gay genes. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-will-have-no-negative-impact-on-american-society-as-a-whole/497593/55 "2009-05-25T22:55:35Z")
> [@cwthree](#): > > I’ve made and backed up the same assertions elsewhere (since you’re so fond of invoking this privilege for yourself, I shall use it here). Read the other thread(s) in which you and I have played. I don’t recall you doing so, but if you say so. But what I don’t get is why you would go through the trouble to create a thread, compose an OP in which you state some plain assertions, and not welcome the opportunity to share the support for said assertions. Odd that. But hey, to each his own. If you change your mind and want to grant others the benefit of why you believe those assertions—you know, the ones that begin with “I assert”—I’ll check back from time to time. I’m afraid I won’t be able to address what you request without a fuller understanding of where you’re coming from. Also, I’d hate to derail the thread with me defending my positions (again!) when I, and no doubt others, are quite curious about the support you have for yours. If you don’t feel that you can support them, or just don’t feel like it, no problem. Alternatively, may I ask you to share why you would create an OP, boldly state certain assertions, then not welcome the opportunity to share the support for them? I find that quite curious. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-will-have-no-negative-impact-on-american-society-as-a-whole/497593/56 "2009-05-25T23:01:20Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Nice try. You said that examples were asked for and not supplied, as if that was some failing on my part. I was simply pointing out the absurdity of the request. The fact that you mention it in this new thread carries over that absurdity. That was _your_ doing, not mine. Your lack of comprehension is showing. Again. > [@](#): > > Since I’ve explained this before, and since you’ve made such strong assertions as the basis of this thread that you started, I’m more interested in you proving those assertions. This thread isn’t about the OP supporting his assertions. It’s a thought exercise designed to get people with your POV to actually provide specific examples of what you think might happen after 40+ years of legalized SSM. _As the OP has reiterated a number of times now._ > [@](#): > > And people are free to provide the answers you want. Me, now, I’m more interested in you proving your assertions. If you don’t want them questioned, if you don’t want to defend those assertions or the claims you make about what has transpired, don’t make them. Is that another way of saying “fuck you; i’m just gonna keep shitting on your thread”? That’s how it reads to me. > [@](#): > > As I said, I’m more interested right now on the assertions that you laid out in your OP. Please offer support for them, as requested. I’m pretty sure you know how a debate works. If you make assertions and are asked to prove, or supply evidence for those assertion, you do so. For the umpteenth time you utterly fail to comprehend what this thread is about. If you want to see people back up those assertions, start a thread for people to do that. **This thread** , as the OP keeps saying, is for your side to actually come forth with specifics. Which you, nor anyone else, has yet offered. And no, I’m not going to read the other thread. I’m only interested in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-will-have-no-negative-impact-on-american-society-as-a-whole/497593/57 "2009-05-25T23:10:28Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > This thread isn’t about the OP supporting his assertions. Wait. He stated certain assertions in his own OP. Certainly an interlocutor is free to question those assertions. I’ve asked a few times now. If he is unwilling to do so, I’ll have to conclude that he is not serious about the debate. Or about fair debate, anyway. I’m of the mind that any thread is about questioning the assertions made in the OP. Do you disagree? If so, please explain. I thought that’s pretty much part of this whole debate thing. > [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > And no, I’m not going to read the other thread. I’m only interested in this thread. I can support you here. You, like all of us, are free to read—or not read—any thread. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-will-have-no-negative-impact-on-american-society-as-a-whole/497593/58 "2009-05-25T23:15:19Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I’m of the mind that any thread is about questioning the assertions made in the OP. Do you disagree? If so, please explain. I thought that’s pretty much part of this whole debate thing. Usually, yes. Sometimes threads are about asking for a specific side’s view on an issue, and thus the OP’s opinion is not particularly relevant. We care about what you think and the reasoning behind it, not **cwthree** ’s stance. ---
**Author:** ![cwthree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@cwthree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cwthree)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-will-have-no-negative-impact-on-american-society-as-a-whole/497593/59 "2009-05-25T23:19:09Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Alternatively, may I ask you to share why you would create an OP, boldly state certain assertions, then not welcome the opportunity to share the support for them? I find that quite curious. Because it was the introduction to the main topic of the OP, which was (all together now!): I invite you to describe the specific anticipated negative effects of legalized same-sex marriage and/or the use of the work “marriage” to describe the legal union of same-sex couples, as you foresee them. I am explicitly _not_ interested in philosophical discussions of the meaning or definition of the word “marriage;” I _am_ interested how you believe **people’s behavior** would change if the law were changed expand the legal definition of “marriage” to include same-sex couples. But I’m pretty sure you knew that. Want to try again? Second (third, fourth, fifth…Nth) chances are free. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-will-have-no-negative-impact-on-american-society-as-a-whole/497593/60 "2009-05-25T23:21:32Z")
> [@cwthree](#): > > … > Why am I bringing this up? I’m bringing it up because in every thread in which he participates, **magellan01** tells us that allowing same-sex couples to be legally united and to call it “marriage” would be a serious blow to society. He tells us that it would damage the ancient and important concept of marriage, and that this in turn would be a Very Bad Thing for people. > > And in every thread where he says this, other posters say, (I’m paraphrasing), “OK, this is worth discussing. Same-sex marriage would make a lot of people really happy, and most of us here don’t think anyone would be harmed by it. But if you believe it’s got the potential to cause damage, let’s hear your case.” Then they sit back, waiting for **magellan01** to describe what he thinks might happen if same sex couples are allowed to call their legal unions “marriage.” > > And then, of course, nothing happens. I don’t mean, “nothing bad happens, society goes on as normal.” I mean, magellan01 has nothing to offer, except perhaps he assertion that he already explained himself elsewhere (but he can never say where). > > So here’s what I think is going on. **magellan01** is same kind of person who didn’t like women’s suffrage (not sure why, it just didn’t seem right) or desegregation (not sure why, it probably just would have seemed wrong somehow). The only difference is that he’s actually living through same-sex marriage. That’s what it looks like to me too. SInce I have no desire to rehash the “same old same old”, that’s all I see fit to say in this thread. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-will-have-no-negative-impact-on-american-society-as-a-whole/497593.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-will-have-no-negative-impact-on-american-society-as-a-whole/497593.md?page=4)