# Same-sex marriage will have no negative impact on American society as a whole **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 25, 2009, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-will-have-no-negative-impact-on-american-society-as-a-whole/497593 "2009-05-25T18:58:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2009, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-will-have-no-negative-impact-on-american-society-as-a-whole/497593/101 "2009-05-26T02:31:09Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > You’re just not going to get it, are you? This thread is (_supposed to be_) about what you believe. **cwthree** ’s opinions on the matter are really irrelevant, and were only posted in the OP as a contrast to your views. No, I get it just fine. His assertions are premises for why he holds my position as wrong. So, I choose to challenge those premises, i.e., his assertions. Do you believe that this is not a legitimate method of debate? Well, it’s the heart of debate. Assertions are made, questioned and supported. I’ve been on the other side of this for God knows how many threads, and have supplied my reasoning when asked. I offer a shout-out to our highly esteemed moderator, **tomndebb** , with a “thanks” for providing a cite to a post that is but one example of that. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2009, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-will-have-no-negative-impact-on-american-society-as-a-whole/497593/102 "2009-05-26T02:32:17Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > And even more amazed that not one other poster has called upon him to do what is incumbent upon him to do. This is Debate 001. Yet, I, having made no assertions on the subject—and certainly not in the OP—am the one getting elbowed to spill the beans. False. You made an assertion in your fist words of the thread. One you have yet to support in this or any thread where you’ve made it. In Debate 001 when someone makes an assertion and provides some evidence for it {even inconclusive evidence} the burden is then on the opposing argument to make a rational point and offer their own evidence. You’ve countered with an assertion of your own and then failed to defend it. Instead you call for the OP to further elaborate on theirs. Why? The weight of the argument already supports the OP. Lacking any evidence or compelling argument to the contrary the debate is over and the OP isn’t required to defend or justify any further. I repeat, your calls for the OP to defend his assertions further only highlight your lack of evidence and rational argument. > [@](#): > > Maybe it’s because you guys, most of whom share his point of view, feel there’s nothing to explain. Maybe you accept his assertions as fact. I don’t. And when that happens, a poster normally asks for support for said assertions. i can’t believe I have to explain this. But I think it’s telling. I do happen to agree with the OP and have explained why offering my own arguments. I accept his assertions based on available evidence, history and reason. I’m perfectly willing to listen to reasonable opposing arguments and weigh any additional evidence. Thread after thread I’ve seen none. I’m pretty convinced at this point none exists but I remain open. It’s fine for you to not accept the OPs assertions but what I think is telling is the fact you ask the OP for more evidence for his assertions while unable to provide any for your own. See, a poster normally mounts some kind of counter argument but when weighing assertion against assertion the one with \*\*any **evidence usually trumps the one with** none at all \*\*. That, friend, is how it works. > [@](#): > > I have to go in a few minutes anyway. While I’m away, maybe the OP will realize what rightly falls to him. At this point, I am not optimistic. As to not get sucked into another vortex, from here on out I’ll probably restrict my response to the OP. If he won’t support the assertions he makes in his own OP, I don’t think there’s much value hanging around while he shirks his duty. Right. Because the Black Knight always triumphs. “I’ve cut your arms off” “No you haven’t” Sometimes denial is comical but this isn’t one of those times. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2009, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-will-have-no-negative-impact-on-american-society-as-a-whole/497593/103 "2009-05-26T02:36:13Z")
> [@42fish](#): > > He has very sound logic for his contention: the actual evidence is devastating to his position, therefore he must find some excuse to dismiss it. Incorrect. If he has to ignore, dismiss, or rationalize the available evidence then his logic is not sound. Twisted, but not sound. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2009, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-will-have-no-negative-impact-on-american-society-as-a-whole/497593/104 "2009-05-26T02:46:56Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Incorrect. If he has to ignore, dismiss, or rationalize the available evidence then his logic is not sound. Twisted, but not sound. Unless it doesn’t apply to his point. Nice try, though. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2009, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-will-have-no-negative-impact-on-american-society-as-a-whole/497593/105 "2009-05-26T02:53:38Z")
> [@Enginerd](#): > > The only assertion made in the OP was that legalizing gay marriage would have no negative impacts on society as a whole. How is he supposed to support that? > > I’ll give it a try, though: > [ul] > [li]Legalizing gay marriage will not lead to flooding in the midwest.[/li][li]Legalizing gay marriage will not lead to increased rates of breast cancer[/li][li]Legalizing gay marriage will not reduce the GNP of the United States[/li][li]Legalizing gay marriage will not cause an increase in the number of hurricanes making landfall in the southeast[/li][li]Legalizing gay marriage will not reduce the amount of water available for agriculture in the western states[/li][li]Legalizing gay marriage will not cause California to fall into the Pacific.[/li][/ul] > > That’s by no means an exhaustive list, but I’ll be happy to defend any of those if you take issue with them. Now, if you were to offer a specific example of _just one_ potential negative effect of gay marriage, an actual discussion might result from this thread. Just a copy for page 3. I just want to see your answer to this **magellan01**. ---
**Author:** ![cwthree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@cwthree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cwthree)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2009, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-will-have-no-negative-impact-on-american-society-as-a-whole/497593/106 "2009-05-26T02:56:30Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > He obviously has great interest in debating me about this and feels equipped to do so, having started this thread, not to mention post two Pit threads about me. **magellan01** , I’m sorry\* to disappoint you, but I didn’t start this thread about you or because I’m interested in debating you personally. The two Pit threads are most _definitely_ about you. \*But not very sorry. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2009, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-will-have-no-negative-impact-on-american-society-as-a-whole/497593/107 "2009-05-26T03:00:16Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Unless it doesn’t apply to his point. Nice try, though. Here’s a stellar example of the very dismissal and rationalization I was referring to. Even though there is no evidence to support your assertions what evidence there is that supports SSM somehow doesn’t apply. Hmmmm how odd. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2009, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-will-have-no-negative-impact-on-american-society-as-a-whole/497593/108 "2009-05-26T03:06:27Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > You’re just not going to get it, are you? This thread is (_supposed to be_) about what you believe. **cwthree** ’s opinions on the matter are really irrelevant, and were only posted in the OP as a contrast to your views. You’ve overstated quite a bit. The thread is not about **magellan01** or his beliefs. The OP was a specific question and request for clarification by the OP for anybody who opposed SSM. Let’s note that the request for specifics has been ignored. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2009, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-will-have-no-negative-impact-on-american-society-as-a-whole/497593/109 "2009-05-26T03:08:24Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > False. You made an assertion in your fist words of the thread. One you have yet to support in this or any thread where you’ve made it. Hmmm. Here are my first words: [QUOTE=magellan01] Examples? EXAMPLES? It was pointed out over and over that said negative consequences would be two generations or so down the road, so any call for “examples” is ridiculous. [/QUOTE] Which assertion would you like support for: 1. that it was pointed out over and over [in that other thread] that the consequences would be two generations down the road? 2. or that calling for examples of things occurring two generations down the road is ridiculous? Granted, #2 might be a bit more difficult, as we might have different views on the absurdity of time travel in 2009. > [@cosmosdan](#): > > In Debate 001 when someone makes an assertion and provides some evidence for it {even inconclusive evidence} the burden is then on the opposing argument to make a rational point and offer their own evidence. You’ve countered with an assertion of your own and then failed to defend it. Are you kidding? That may happen, sure? But it is just s likely that a psoter will be grilled on a certain point with no alternative being offered. I know. I’ve been there on the other side. > [@cosmosdan](#): > > Instead you call for the OP to further elaborate on theirs. Why? The weight of the argument already supports the OP. Says you. This is exaclty the point. He, you, take his assertions to be fact. They’re not. I wish to show that weakness of his assertions. Once I offer answers, it will turn into to me defending my opinions and assertions against a dozen people. This is an opportunity to attack the foundation and show how shaky it is. Again all this proof, evidence, logic, enlightenment, righteousness versus little old me. And the battle will not be allowed. I declare win by forfeit due to cowardice!!! > [@cosmosdan](#): > > Lacking any evidence or compelling argument to the contrary the debate is over and the OP isn’t required to defend or justify any further. I repeat, your calls for the OP to defend his assertions further only highlight your lack of evidence and rational argument. I’m really laughing. You’re faulting me for the exact same thing I’m faulting the OP for, while giving him a pass. Whew! > [@cosmosdan](#): > > I do happen to agree with the OP and have explained why offering my own arguments. I accept his assertions based on available evidence, history and reason. I’m perfectly willing to listen to reasonable opposing arguments and weigh any additional evidence. Thread after thread I’ve seen none. I’m pretty convinced at this point none exists but I remain open. Ooooohhhhhh. But you’re _not_ open to having _me_ examine and question his assertions and weigh whatever evidence he might offer. Only _you_ get to do that with positions _you_ disagree with. Gotcha. I’ll try to keep that in mind. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2009, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-will-have-no-negative-impact-on-american-society-as-a-whole/497593/110 "2009-05-26T03:12:59Z")
> [@cwthree](#): > > **magellan01** , I’m sorry\* to disappoint you, but I didn’t start this thread about you or because I’m interested in debating you personally. The two Pit threads are most _definitely_ about you. > > \*But not very sorry. We’re on Page 3 now of the thread YOU started. In Post 6 I asked for support for various assertions that YOU listed in your very own OP. You have yet to do so. Well done! ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2009, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-will-have-no-negative-impact-on-american-society-as-a-whole/497593/111 "2009-05-26T03:13:07Z")
If you would like to dispute his premise, I have a very simple way for you to go about that: Provide a specific example of a negative impact that gay marriage would have on American society as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2009, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-will-have-no-negative-impact-on-american-society-as-a-whole/497593/112 "2009-05-26T03:21:21Z")
> [@Raygun99](#): > > If you would like to dispute his premise, I have a very simple way for you to go about that: Provide a specific example of a negative impact that gay marriage would have on American society as a whole. I’m well aware of my options, but thanks. I’ll wait for him to answer what has been asked of him in Post 6. Otherwise it’ll turn into yet another thread of me on defense with a dozen or so people hyperfocusing on every word. Not that I mind that, but here I have another option which I’d like to explore. Let’s see how the OP does. ---
**Author:** ![cwthree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@cwthree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cwthree)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2009, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-will-have-no-negative-impact-on-american-society-as-a-whole/497593/113 "2009-05-26T03:23:07Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > calling for examples of things occurring two generations down the road is ridiculous? Nonsense. We routinely make predictions or speculate as to the future consequences of current actions. Since you seem reasonably certain that there will be consequences of legalizing SSM and using the term “marriage” to refer to same-sex unions, presumably you have some idea of what those consequences might be. Care to share? > [@magellan01](#): > > Once I offer answers, it will turn into to me defending my opinions and assertions against a dozen people. This is an opportunity to attack the foundation and show how shaky it is. Again all this proof, evidence, logic, enlightenment, righteousness versus little old me. And the battle will not be allowed. I declare win by forfeit due to cowardice!!! That’s an amazing combination of pity party and ego trip, but it doesn’t answer the question. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2009, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-will-have-no-negative-impact-on-american-society-as-a-whole/497593/114 "2009-05-26T03:26:00Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I’m well aware of my options, but thanks. I’ll wait for him to answer what has been asked of him in Post 6. Otherwise it’ll turn into yet another thread of me on defense with a dozen or so people hyperfocusing on every word. Not that I mind that, but here I have another option which I’d like to explore. Let’s see how the OP does. In other words, you do not have one. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2009, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-will-have-no-negative-impact-on-american-society-as-a-whole/497593/115 "2009-05-26T03:26:59Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Hmmm. Here are my first words: > > Which assertion would you like support for: > > 1. that it was pointed out over and over [in that other thread] that the consequences would be two generations down the road? > > 2. or that calling for examples of things occurring two generations down the road is ridiculous? > > Granted, #2 might be a bit more difficult, as we might have different views on the absurdity of time travel in 2009. > … Something bad will happen in about 40 years or 2 generations. No examples of what bad things will happen but they will happen. Do you have ANY idea how ridiculous that is? Any idea at all? We have a sort of running joke at work. It has to do with workplace safety, and designing safety into a system. We’ve decided it’s the safety guy’s job to simply run around waving his hands, yelling “I’m scared”. Kind of like you. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2009, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-will-have-no-negative-impact-on-american-society-as-a-whole/497593/116 "2009-05-26T03:32:00Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > He did not support his assertions. He just spouted what he would or would not deem worthy of answering. He doesn’t seem to grasp that his first responsibility is to back up his own bold assertions. He backed them up in the OP. You stepped in to make one you haven’t backed up ever and then to demand he offer further evidence. Before you demand he offer additional evidence you should offer some kind of rebuttal argument other than “prove my evidence free assertion is wrong” > [@](#): > > As I said, I’ll wait to see his answers and deal with them at that time. Why is it you and others are so quick to allow him to slough off on his responsibility and prop him up? he doesn’t need any propping up and has not avoided any responsibility. He listed evidence in the OP with his assertions and asked a simple question which you have avoided. Unless you have any evidence to counter his assertions and the evidence he’s already offered he’s under no obligation to meet your arbitrary demands. What you’ve done is is state your disagreement with nothing to back it up and and rather than offer an opposing argument or answer the question posed, demand he provide additional evidence. It’s a hollow meaningless demand until you offer some support for an opposing argument. That’s how it works here and you know it. > [@](#): > > Here’s a request: let him handle this on his own. Let it be just me and him. No help from anyone else. If you guys are so sure of your position and have even halfway faith in the abilities of the OP, it should still be a lopsided fight, right? I mean, he’s got all kinds of evidence and logic on his side, right? Not to mention the self-evident righteousness of his enlightened position. And what do I have? Just little old me with some wacky, throwback notions about society and shoddy logic. Should be easy. Of course, I’m assuming that he feels confident in being able to support his assertions when held to scrutiny. That’s also not how it works in a public forum. Here’s a request. Offer something substantial to support your argument or stop bringing it up. It’s a personal opinion based on nothing but your own feelings. That’s fine but leaves little to be debated in any meaningful way. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2009, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-will-have-no-negative-impact-on-american-society-as-a-whole/497593/117 "2009-05-26T03:36:27Z")
> [@cwthree](#): > > Nonsense. We routinely make predictions or speculate as to the future consequences of current actions. Since you seem reasonably certain that there will be consequences of legalizing SSM and using the term “marriage” to refer to same-sex unions, presumably you have some idea of what those consequences might be. Care to share? You mean, as I have before? Possibly. Just depends on how forthcoming you are on the assertions you’ve made. > [@cwthree](#): > > That’s an amazing combination of pity party and ego trip, but it doesn’t answer the question. Uh, maybe because it wasn’t a question I was responding to. Pretty weird how the works, huh? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2009, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-will-have-no-negative-impact-on-american-society-as-a-whole/497593/118 "2009-05-26T03:44:53Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > He backed them up in the OP. You stepped in to make one you haven’t backed up ever and then to demand he offer further evidence. I pointed out that it was inapplicable and why. More than once now. > [@cosmosdan](#): > > Unless you have any evidence to counter his assertions and the evidence he’s already offered he’s under no obligation to meet your arbitrary demands. And I have no obligation to play the game you want me to play, especially when you’ve shown yourself to care nothing for fairness. > [@cosmosdan](#): > > That’s also not how it works in a public forum. Fine. It would only work if he felt up to it and the throng would stay away anyway. He’s stated he’d rather not so that’s that. And I’m free to judge that as I choose. > [@cosmosdan](#): > > Here’s a request. Offer something substantial to support your argument or stop bringing it up. It’s a personal opinion based on nothing but your own feelings. That’s fine but leaves little to be debated in any meaningful way. I’ll bring it up whenever I feel like it. Based on your post a couple back, you would be one of the last people I would look to for “proper debating” advice. So I feel it really easy to ignore this. especially since I’ve commented on it already. ---
**Author:** ![cwthree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@cwthree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cwthree)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2009, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-will-have-no-negative-impact-on-american-society-as-a-whole/497593/119 "2009-05-26T03:45:43Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > > [@cwthree](#): > > > > Nonsense. We routinely make predictions or speculate as to the future consequences of current actions. Since you seem reasonably certain that there will be consequences of legalizing SSM and using the term “marriage” to refer to same-sex unions, presumably you have some idea of what those consequences might be. Care to share? > > You mean, as I have before? I, and several others, do not believe that you have adequately described what you believe those consequences might be. Where have you done so before? Cites, links? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2009, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-will-have-no-negative-impact-on-american-society-as-a-whole/497593/120 "2009-05-26T03:59:50Z")
magellan, can you describe the consequences for us? Just start in the easiest, most generalized terms. I promise that once I have a starting point, I’ll ask more specific questions and we can discuss the allegedly potentially negative consequences at length. You don’t have to meet me halfway. One-sixteenth will do, for starters. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-will-have-no-negative-impact-on-american-society-as-a-whole/497593.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-marriage-will-have-no-negative-impact-on-american-society-as-a-whole/497593.md?page=7)