# Same-sex relationships in cartoons aimed at kids **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 27, 2016, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-relationships-in-cartoons-aimed-at-kids/755854 "2016-05-27T21:08:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Foggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foggy/32/1082_2.png) [@Foggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Foggy)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2016, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-relationships-in-cartoons-aimed-at-kids/755854/22 "2016-05-28T03:03:48Z")
I’m confused. I see people quoting **themoss** , but I don’t see their post. ---
**Author:** ![FloatyGimpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/floatygimpy/32/7750_2.png) [@FloatyGimpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FloatyGimpy)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2016, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-relationships-in-cartoons-aimed-at-kids/755854/23 "2016-05-28T03:37:33Z")
> [@Foggy](#): > > I’m confused. > > I see people quoting **themoss** , but I don’t see their post. I just did a search for “themoss” and nothing comes up so s/he must have been disappeared along with his/her posts. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2016, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-relationships-in-cartoons-aimed-at-kids/755854/24 "2016-05-28T05:17:58Z")
> [@Foggy](#): > > I’m confused. > > I see people quoting **themoss** , but I don’t see their post. Banned as a spammer, and all posts deleted. Looks like some of his posts were less spammy than others. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2016, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-relationships-in-cartoons-aimed-at-kids/755854/25 "2016-05-28T05:19:36Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Banned as a spammer, and all posts deleted. > > Looks like some of his posts were less spammy than others. And on consideration, because so many people had already responded to that post, I restored it just to make the thread less confusing. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2016, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-relationships-in-cartoons-aimed-at-kids/755854/26 "2016-05-28T11:15:44Z")
> [@themoss](#): > > I don’t mind that they exist, I guess I would personally steer my kid away. Not that I’m intolerant but I want them to be the most well-adjusted so they arguably have the best opportunity they can have. Ah yes, the old "Not that I’m intolerant, but . . . " And how well-adjusted will your kid be if s/he turns out to be gay, yet has no idea that there are other gay people in the world? (As a child of the '50s, I speak from experience.) ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2016, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-relationships-in-cartoons-aimed-at-kids/755854/27 "2016-05-28T12:25:21Z")
> [@themoss](#): > > I don’t mind that they exist, I guess I would personally steer my kid away. Not that I’m intolerant but I want them to be the most well-adjusted so they arguably have the best opportunity they can have. You can’t “steer” your kid away from being gay. You can only make it hard on them if they are. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2016, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-relationships-in-cartoons-aimed-at-kids/755854/28 "2016-05-28T12:38:39Z")
> [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](#): > > There have been gay cartoon characters forever. Remember Tom and Jerry? What about Ernie and Bert? Where did you get the impression that Tom and Jerry were gay? For most of the cartoons’ existence they have been adversaries. Tom tries to get rid of Jerry, Jerry tries to get Tom in trouble with Spike the bulldog or injure himself in a hilarious manner. Even in the few cartoons where they don’t fight, it’s never been suggested that they’ve been anything more than buddies. And Tom has certainly shown interest in the lady cats. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2016, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-relationships-in-cartoons-aimed-at-kids/755854/29 "2016-05-28T12:45:35Z")
> [@AtomThought](#): > > If they’re portrayed realistically, is there any valid reason not to depict same-sex relationships in cartoons aimed at kids? Who cares of they’re realistic, for that matter? Just so long as they’re unrealistic in the same manner as mixed-gender relationships. Don’t portray them as inherently negative, don’t portray unhealthy behaviours as Oh So Romantic (whether same-gender or mixed-gender, for any gender)…though there’s no reason to shy away from unhealthy behaviours, just acknowledge them as such (thank you, Crewniverse). ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2016, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-relationships-in-cartoons-aimed-at-kids/755854/30 "2016-05-28T13:19:49Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > And Tom has certainly shown interest in the lady cats. Some gay cats have beards. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2016, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-relationships-in-cartoons-aimed-at-kids/755854/31 "2016-05-28T13:45:16Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > But putting that aside, I can think of one possible reason. Most surveys show that only a very small percentage of people call themselves homosexual. So if a lot of shows show same-sex couples, children very well may get the impression that homosexuality is much more common than it actually is. Like others said – so? As it is you have situations in which (American TV) shows with multiple main characters will combine character traits so as to have exactly 1 Asian, 1 Black, 1 Latino, 1 in a wheelchair, 1 jock, 1 nerdgeek, yet still fewer girls than boys; meaning whatever group will be over- or under-represented relative to RL demographics. The point of course being that you should be inclusive of all – if someone is getting a wrong lesson that there should be a quota of exact equal fractions, maybe that’s for teen/young adult media to address. And it’s progress, hey, back in the 90s the US version of Sailor Moon recast Haruka and Michiru as “cousins” in the dub, but all they achieved was a lot of kids going :dubious: over just how close were those “cousins”. Plus in any case the fanboys had from the start cross-shipped every single character with every other with no regard for gender so it was a lost battle. An entirely different issue is the trend towards casting all interpersonal relationships as romantic. If the cartoon is aimed at kids maybe you should show Captain Wonderdude and Justicewoman simply collaborating to fight evil and leave it at that (lesson: men and women just working together as equals). There is no evidence, and no dramatic need, for Bert and Ernie as anything other than “Odd Couple” roommates. ---
**Author:** ![Me\_Billy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e480ec/32.png) [@Me\_Billy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Me_Billy)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2016, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-relationships-in-cartoons-aimed-at-kids/755854/32 "2016-05-28T15:56:02Z")
> [@AtomThought](#): > > …as long as they’re portrayed realistically… That is fine with me! Same as religion, don’t push your religion on me. And also don’t tell me to not have any religion either! And same with this. Show it realistically as it is in the real world. It is there. If you are interested, there it is. If you are not interested, here are other choices for you. Etc. ---
**Author:** ![Foggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foggy/32/1082_2.png) [@Foggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Foggy)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2016, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-relationships-in-cartoons-aimed-at-kids/755854/33 "2016-05-28T16:03:58Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > And on consideration, because so many people had already responded to that post, I restored it just to make the thread less confusing. Thank you. Of course I confuse easily.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2016, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-relationships-in-cartoons-aimed-at-kids/755854/34 "2016-05-28T16:25:21Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m unaware of any religious guidelines on relationship portrayals in cartoons. Do you know of any? Didn’t someone boycott teletubbies because one of them seemed gay? I think that’s from the bible. > [@](#): > > Depends on what “a lot” means – there are probably hundreds (if not thousands) of children’s cartoons available on TV and online – the ~5% (or whatever the percentage of couples are same sex) of that number could still be in the dozens or hundreds – is that “a lot” of cartoons? After having kids I was surprised how much more progressive kid’s tv was than mainstream media. The portrayal of minorities are much less stereotyped and much more representative of the population in children’s shows than adult shows. Its almost like we don’t want our kids to grow up to be closed minded, ignorant bigots. Children’s show producers are probably going to go to hell. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2016, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-relationships-in-cartoons-aimed-at-kids/755854/35 "2016-05-28T17:11:35Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > OP, you seem to be using “valid reason” to mean a non-religious reason–which shows a great deal of bias and bigotry on your part. Howso? “Religious” reasons tend to be reasons based on religious beliefs, beliefs that almost by definition are held on faith and unproven or unprovable. In a pluralistic society, “My holy book says” or “The deity I believe in says” are not good enough reasons. They are not “valid reasons” for the purposes of this or really any other discussion. You need to bring more to the table than that, or demonstrate that your religious beliefs are also _true_. If you want to take up that undertaking, by all means, knock yourself out. I’m sure that’s not something far smarter men than you have tried and failed to do for every conceivable religion over the last ten thousand years. > [@](#): > > But putting that aside, I can think of one possible reason. Most surveys show that only a very small percentage of people call themselves homosexual. So if a lot of shows show same-sex couples, children very well may get the impression that homosexuality is much more common than it actually is. To bring up one example named in the first post, in Steven Universe, there are indeed two clearly female characters who clearly have a thing for each other. _That said_, it’s also perhaps worth noting that (mild spoilers for anyone not up-to-date on Steven Universe) the two happen to be aliens from another star system, of a species which doesn’t appear to have _anyone_ who we would identify as “male”, and they spent most of the show “fused” into one entity, using their magical powers to fight monsters. Of all of that, the thing the kids are most likely to take away from this is “homosexuality is more common than it actually is”? Really? Weird. And that’s supposed to be harmful? Why? Certainly it’s less of a problem than no representation of LGBT individuals in media, no? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2016, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-relationships-in-cartoons-aimed-at-kids/755854/36 "2016-05-28T19:35:08Z")
For what it’s worth, it’s not just fundamentalists and conservatives who are objecting. My mom self-identifies as a hippie, she consistently votes Democratic, and she thinks that if a gay couple wants to get married, that’s their business. But she’s also 76 years old. We had a conversation a couple of weeks ago where she mentioned a kids’ book she had just read, and objected to the presence of a gay relationship in it. I pointed out that she doesn’t have any problem with heterosexual relationships being portrayed in the same books, and that the book’s grade level was old enough that some of the readers probably were becoming aware of their sexuality (certainly, one of my peers was already girl-crazy by fourth grade, and it could just as easily happen for a gay kid). But I don’t think I got through to her. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2016, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-relationships-in-cartoons-aimed-at-kids/755854/37 "2016-05-28T19:43:15Z")
> [@AtomThought](#): > > There is still a reluctance to show same-sex couples being overtly romantic, and some relationships have been confirmed by the shows’ creators after only being hinted at onscreen, but it certainly seems that recently, at least in the US, there have been more canonical same-sex relationships in these kinds of shows than even a decade ago. I’d say that same sex couples should have the same level of romance as straight couples, not very much in kids shows. My kids grew up with an open same sex couple across the street, and then we moved to the Bay Area, and they wound up with healthy attitudes. So the more real life is shown in kids shows and commercials and adult shows, the better. Great first post, by the way. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2016, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-relationships-in-cartoons-aimed-at-kids/755854/38 "2016-05-28T20:17:49Z")
> [@AtomThought](#): > > There is still a reluctance to show same-sex couples being overtly romantic In shows for children there’s still a reluctance to shop opposite-sex couples being overly romantic too. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2016, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-relationships-in-cartoons-aimed-at-kids/755854/39 "2016-05-28T22:23:31Z")
When _was_ the first clearly implied normalized gay or bisexual relationship in an American kid’s cartoon? I don’t think we can count Smithers in The Simpsons since that show is not primarily marketed for kids and he is rarely shown involved anyway. The end of Korra maybe? So it is pretty recent and I am not so sure really all that common. I’m not a cartoon expert but how many others than the ones listed in the op are there? Princess B and Marceline in Adventure Time pretty much completes the list as far as I know. Now of course some of those happen to be amazingly excellent cartoons that have cross-over adult appeal, so of the cartoons I see/have seen it is “a lot” (never watched Clarence but Steven Universe, Korra, and Adventure Time are among the best in my book, just missing Gravity Falls and the original Avatar) but overall? Pretty dang few. My only concern if it actually became “a lot” would be its being used as a pandering claim of “edginess” rather than just characters to happen to be gay as a fantasy reflection of the real world having some relationships that happen to be same sex. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2016, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-relationships-in-cartoons-aimed-at-kids/755854/40 "2016-05-29T04:42:09Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > When _was_ the first clearly implied normalized gay or bisexual relationship in an American kid’s cartoon? > > I don’t think we can count Smithers in The Simpsons since that show is not primarily marketed for kids and he is rarely shown involved anyway. The end of Korra maybe? If there was one earlier, at least in American television, it’s not commonly known. After the three- or four-cornered romance in season 1 proved less than satisfying, Bryke noodled around in season 2 not doing much while they thought things over. They approached Nick with the idea who said “Go for it; just don’t go too squicky.” That’s why Korra and Asami held hands in the last scene rather than kissing as did Aang and Katara in their finale. To make sure the point was put across, the sky in the scent faded to the colors on the [bisexual flag](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisexual_pride_flag) but there were still a lot of “what just happened here?” questions. ---
**Author:** ![AtomThought](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e68b1a/32.png) [@AtomThought](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AtomThought)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2016, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-relationships-in-cartoons-aimed-at-kids/755854/41 "2016-05-29T04:56:49Z")
It’s a shame they weren’t allowed to show them kissing, though. It made the scene seem a little anticlimactic compared to the previous finale. I didn’t even notice the bisexual flag thing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-relationships-in-cartoons-aimed-at-kids/755854.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-relationships-in-cartoons-aimed-at-kids/755854.md?page=3)