# Same-Sex Wedding bells in Canada! **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 10, 2003, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-wedding-bells-in-canada/180957 "2003-06-10T20:33:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![swami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@swami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/swami)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-wedding-bells-in-canada/180957/21 "2003-06-11T18:53:15Z")
Wow this is great, now if only Canada would get pot legal too. Now **that** would be a progressive Country (nods to our Dutch Dopers) ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-wedding-bells-in-canada/180957/22 "2003-06-11T19:04:27Z")
For those interested, [here](http://www.ontariocourts.on.ca/decisions/2003/june/halpernC39172.htm) is the court decision. I literally choked up reading the sections of the depositions from the couples trying to marry. Luckily the dry legal jargon cleared that right up! For those who don’t want to plow through it all, here’s the actual order: > [@](#): > > [155] In summary, we have concluded the following: > > (1) the existing common law definition of marriage is “the voluntary union for life of one man and one woman to the exclusion of all others”; > > (2) the courts have jurisdiction to alter the common law definition of marriage; resort to constitutional amendment procedures is not required; > > (3) the existing common law definition of marriage does not infringe MCCT’s freedom of religion rights under s. 2(a) of the Charter or its equality rights on the basis of religion under s. 15(1) of the Charter; > > (4) the existing common law definition of marriage violates the Couples’ equality rights on the basis of sexual orientation under s. 15(1) of the Charter; and > > (5) the violation of the Couples’ equality rights under s. 15(1) of the Charter cannot be justified in a free and democratic society under s. 1 of the Charter. > > [156] To remedy the infringement of these constitutional rights, we: > > (1) declare the existing common law definition of marriage to be invalid to the extent that it refers to “one man and one woman”; > > (2) reformulate the common law definition of marriage as “the voluntary union for life of two persons to the exclusion of all others”; > > (3) order the declaration of invalidity in (1) and the reformulated definition in (2) to have immediate effect; > > (4) order the Clerk of the City of Toronto to issue marriage licenses to the Couples; and > > (5) order the Registrar General of the Province of Ontario to accept for registration the marriage certificates of Kevin Bourassa and Joe Varnell and of Elaine and Anne Vautour. The two couples listed in (5) had marriage paperwork issued by a church but were denied the filing of it with the registrar. They were married back in January 2001 which, since this ruling legalizes their marriage back to that date, makes them the first two legal same-sex marriages in the world. ---
**Author:** ![Kn\_ckers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/96bed5/32.png) [@Kn\_ckers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kn_ckers)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-wedding-bells-in-canada/180957/23 "2003-06-11T19:19:49Z")
Hooray for Canada! That there is progress, boys and girls. Lets hope other nations follow-suit! ---
**Author:** ![kung\_fu\_lola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f4b2a3/32.png) [@kung\_fu\_lola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kung_fu_lola)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-wedding-bells-in-canada/180957/24 "2003-06-11T22:54:17Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by cowgirl \* > \*\* > We mustn’t forget about Alberta, the Texas of Canada. The asshat premier Ralph Klein refuses to accept this ruling and plans to use the “Notwithstanding Clause,” the oh-so-Canadian feature that allows governments to say “Ya, but …” to supreme court rulings that relate to Charter rights. Apparently Albertans aren’t ready to accept SSM. I’m quite certain that some Albertans are ready !_\* I just heard on CBC radio from a law professor in Alberta. She claimed that the provincial law can be rendered invalid **if** someone challenges it on the basis that the province has no jurisdiction to invoke notwithstanding clauses against charter declarations. More succinctly, if someone wants to weasel SSM in through a court challenge, they’ll have to argue that provinces can’t pick and choose which human rights they want to extend to their citizens, and which ones they will deny. Which is likely to work, considering what the Supreme Court already had to say about SSM yesterday. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-wedding-bells-in-canada/180957/25 "2003-06-11T23:20:36Z")
Sweet. Nothing I’d like more than to deflate Ralph Klein. ---
**Author:** ![kung\_fu\_lola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f4b2a3/32.png) [@kung\_fu\_lola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kung_fu_lola)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-wedding-bells-in-canada/180957/26 "2003-06-11T23:27:35Z")
Yeah, I wanna deflate him too. He’s the worst blow-up doll I’ve ever seen. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-wedding-bells-in-canada/180957/27 "2003-06-11T23:44:59Z")
Well, it’s confirmed: > [@](#): > > Ontario will register the marriages of gay and lesbian couples following a controversial court ruling that legalizes same-sex unions in the province, the attorney-general said Wednesday. > > “I’m charged to follow the laws and will follow the laws with regards to this matter,” Norm Sterling said as he headed into a morning cabinet meeting. Asked if Ontario would register the marriages, Sterling said: “Absolutely.” [Globe and Mail](http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20030611.wssex0611/BNStory/National/) ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-wedding-bells-in-canada/180957/28 "2003-06-11T23:56:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Grey \* > \*\*Netherlands and Belgium both legislated SSM. 🙂 > > Canada has had it by judicial fiat. I like the result, I dislike the way it happened. \*\* Nonsense. Canada has SSM as a result of the adoption of the Charter in 1982. It’s just that nobody’s recognized that fact for 21 years. It’s not judicial fiat which placed the words > [@](#): > > 1. (1) Every individual is equal before and under the law and has the right to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination and, in particular, without discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability. into the Constitution. Or perhaps you meant you disapprove of the way PET patriated the Constitution? Water under the bridge, my friend. ---
**Author:** ![Tiram](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c37758/32.png) [@Tiram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tiram)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2003, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-wedding-bells-in-canada/180957/29 "2003-06-12T00:04:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Otto \* > They were married back in January 2001 which, since this ruling legalizes their marriage back to that date, makes them the first two legal same-sex marriages in the world. Uhm, I’m afraid not… I don’t know how long same-sex marriages have been formalized in the Netherlands and Belgium, but it’s certainly been longer than two years:) Norway formalized same-sex marriages 10 years ago, on the 1st of August, 1993. (And was the second country in the World to do so, according to the page linked below.) [Norway’s first “legal” same-sex couple 🙂](http://www.llh.oslo.no/skeivedager/html/tema.html) (I suppose there must be something in English somewhere, but I could only find Norwegian sources. Sorry, y’all.) ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2003, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-wedding-bells-in-canada/180957/30 "2003-06-12T00:29:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by matt\_mcl \* > \*\*Sweet. Nothing I’d like more than to deflate Ralph Klein. \*\* Who is Ralph Klein? ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2003, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-wedding-bells-in-canada/180957/31 "2003-06-12T00:41:38Z")
Ralph Klein is Premier of Alberta. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2003, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-wedding-bells-in-canada/180957/32 "2003-06-12T02:51:32Z")
Tiram, are you sure that was marriage, and not registered partnership? I am pretty sure that the Netherlands was the first country to actually remove the reference to sex from the marriage laws and have the same law for both gay and straight couples, rather than legally recognizing same-sex couples under a different name. (For example, the province of Quebec, where I’m from, has legal same-sex partnerships with close to the same rights as marriage already, but they are called “civil unions.”) ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2003, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-wedding-bells-in-canada/180957/33 "2003-06-12T02:52:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gorsnak \* > **Nonsense. Canada has SSM as a result of the adoption of the Charter in 1982. It’s just that nobody’s recognized that fact for 21 years. It’s not judicial fiat which placed the words** I would’ve preferred that parliment make the call and remove the inevitable cries of “elistist, political princess making law”. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2003, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-wedding-bells-in-canada/180957/34 "2003-06-12T02:59:20Z")
And they did - 21 years ago. Oh, good news for the Americans too: > [@](#): > > Syndicated news reporter Rex Wockner spoke Wednesday with the Toronto city clerk’s office, which confirmed that couples who marry in Ontario are not required to be a resident of the country, meaning that American couples may go to Canada to marry. > > Couples must first apply for a license with clerk, Wockner said. Subsequently, they must have the marriage solemnized by a judge, justice of the peace or an appropriate authorized religious representative. The person who conducts the ceremony then files paperwork with the Ontario Provincial Office of the Registrar General, and the married couple may apply to receive their official marriage certificate in about 12 weeks. [http://www.planetout.com/news/article.html?date=2003/06/11/1](http://www.planetout.com/news/article.html?date=2003/06/11/1) ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2003, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-wedding-bells-in-canada/180957/35 "2003-06-12T03:14:56Z")
**matt\_mcl** I feel that something this big, that means this much to people (on both sides), that touches on such a historic institution should’ve been explicitly dealt with by Parliament. That wasn’t the case. I’m uneasy about that. Happy with the ends, uneasy with means. ---
**Author:** ![Queen\_Tonya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/4491bb/32.png) [@Queen\_Tonya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Queen_Tonya)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2003, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-wedding-bells-in-canada/180957/36 "2003-06-12T04:13:58Z")
And we thought bridge traffic was finally speeding back up, guess not! Yay Canada! ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2003, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-wedding-bells-in-canada/180957/37 "2003-06-12T05:36:03Z")
So, given that at least one gay couple got married in Ontario Tuesday, (and no doubt many will follow), what happens if the Provincial Govt appeals this in 30 days (or whatever)? And if they win the appeal? Does that make this couple’s marriage invalid, retroactively? P.S. Down here in the States, we have an odd situation. A gay couple went to Vermont to get a “civil union” several years ago. They’ve now split up, and want to get a ‘divorce’, to make sure they are legally seperated. But the state they live in (Texas, I think) won’t give them a divorce, since it says they were never legally married. And Vermont won’t give them a divorce, because they only grant divorces to people residing in Vermont. So they can’t get anyone to give them a divorce. (I haven’t heard if they’ve tried Reno, NV yet.) Is this what the religious right means by ‘covenant marriages’? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2003, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-wedding-bells-in-canada/180957/38 "2003-06-12T12:26:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tiram \* > \*\*Uhm, I’m afraid not… I don’t know how long same-sex marriages have been formalized in the Netherlands and Belgium, but it’s certainly been longer than two years:) Norway formalized same-sex marriages 10 years ago, on the 1st of August, 1993. (And was the second country in the World to do so, according to the page linked below.) > > [Norway’s first “legal” same-sex couple 🙂](http://www.llh.oslo.no/skeivedager/html/tema.html) > > (I suppose there must be something in English somewhere, but I could only find Norwegian sources. Sorry, y’all.) \*\* No, [Norway](http://www.qx.net/jeff/gayky/marriage.htm) legalized registered domestic partnerships, which extended some but not all rights of marriage (IIRC one large ommision was the ability to adopt children). The site I linked to looks to be accurate based on my admittedly not-perfect recall. ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2003, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-wedding-bells-in-canada/180957/39 "2003-06-12T13:05:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Grey \* > \*\ ***matt\_mcl** I feel that something this big, that means this much to people (on both sides), that touches on such a historic institution should’ve been explicitly dealt with by Parliament. That wasn’t the case. I’m uneasy about that. Happy with the ends, uneasy with means. \*\* Unfortunately **Grey** , legislators of all stripes across the nation have spent the past 20 years passing the buck on “social progress issues” to the courts, so this kind of judicial end run has _de facto_ become the Canadian way. ---
**Author:** ![Nichol\_storm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Nichol\_storm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nichol_storm)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2003, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-wedding-bells-in-canada/180957/40 "2003-06-12T13:43:47Z")
Does this mean that gay marriage is legal now in Canada? I mean, if I were a Canadian lesbian, could I waltz into the Justice of the Peace’s office (or the Canadian equivalent) with my girlfriend tomorrow and get legally hitched? .:Nichol:. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-wedding-bells-in-canada/180957.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/same-sex-wedding-bells-in-canada/180957.md?page=3)