# Samuel Cheney has two mommies **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 24, 2007, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samuel-cheney-has-two-mommies/405419 "2007-05-24T22:15:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2007, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samuel-cheney-has-two-mommies/405419/21 "2007-05-25T09:19:28Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > If the kid gets sick, a “relatives only” hospital will not allow Poe to visit him. […] > > Neither of those scenarios is exactly life-or-death. Better hope not, at least. But it conceivably might be, for example in the case of an (ogforbid) medical emergency where the legal parent temporarily cannot be reached and the hospital doesn’t recognize the right of the same-sex partner to make crucial decisions. > [@Martin Hyde](#): > > If two people are interested and dedicated to raising a child, they are its parents, a piece of paper doesn’t change that. (One can assume pre-civilization humans engaged in parenting without such official documents, too.) I agree that the lack of legal status for the second parent doesn’t somehow automatically deprive the child of the physical fact of living in a loving two-adult home. However, that “piece of paper” isn’t as trivial as you suggest. The denial of formal parental rights to a same-sex non-biological parent sends a very clear signal that we as a society don’t value that parent’s commitment to the child and don’t recognize her official responsibility for the child. Combined with all our rhetoric about supporting marriage and the family as crucially important institutions, that denial says loud and clear that same-sex parent couples just don’t count as far as we’re concerned. Yeah sure, prehistoric humans parented without official documents attesting to their parental status (although I bet they had other types of formal social recognition of the parent-child bond, and social taboos of their own about who could or could not act as whose parent). But we don’t do that anymore. We have official pieces of paper now, and we accord more official respect and recognition to those who have the pieces of paper than to those who don’t. We have socially affirmed the importance of marriage and parenting in modern society by awarding them a recognized legal status that automatically carries recognized rights and responsibilities. And when we deny that status to certain groups of people, you bet your ass that we are indeed telling their children “Your family doesn’t really count. Your family doesn’t qualify as a real family.” ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2007, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samuel-cheney-has-two-mommies/405419/22 "2007-05-25T10:45:09Z")
[QUOTE=Nava] If the kid gets sick, a “relatives only” hospital will not allow Poe to visit him. [/quote] How common are “relatives only” hospitals? > [@](#): > > Some schools will not accept a “note from Mom” written by Poe. Some locations will give shit to any school that accepts a “note from Mom” written by Poe. IME if your name is on the kid’s emergency card you can sign them in/out. I’ve actually signed my niece and nephew out of school a few times and am _not_ on their emergency card. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2007, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samuel-cheney-has-two-mommies/405419/23 "2007-05-25T10:48:14Z")
[QUOTE=Kimstu] Better hope not, at least. But it conceivably might be, for example in the case of an (ogforbid) medical emergency where the legal parent temporarily cannot be reached and the hospital doesn’t recognize the right of the same-sex partner to make crucial decisions. [/quote] My main problem with Olbermann’s comment was: > [@](#): > > Not theory here, not abstractions, this particular little boy, on day one, facing all the crap life has to offer him and everybody else, he doesn‘t get two official parents, and this makes you feel better about yourself how? Lots of kids get one parent, period. Sure, there’s another, biological parent out there, who will never pay a dime in child support or contribute in any meaningful way to the child’s life. I never said this wasn’t a _legal_ problem, just that Olbermann was way overreacting. Not having two parents “on paper” isn’t exactly doomsday. It’s an unfortunate situation that exists for historically unfortunate reasons, but I guess it just didn’t rate high enough to me to justify the kind of rhetoric Olbemann was throwing out. Where’s the outrage for all the kids that not only don’t have “two official parents” but only have “one _actual_ parent”? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2007, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samuel-cheney-has-two-mommies/405419/24 "2007-05-25T11:19:22Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > Where’s the outrage for all the kids that not only don’t have “two official parents” but only have “one actual parent”? Look, the point isn’t whether some kids get a raw deal in the family lottery from various causes and deserve sympathy. Of course they do. The point is that in this case (and many others like it), the government is deliberately **sabotaging** the stable, loving, committed two-parent families that it claims to be so concerned about fostering. Yes, it’s a damn shame when a kid isn’t lucky enough to have two caring, mutually loving parents who are willing to commit to the full rights and responsibilities of parenthood. All the more reason why, when a kid **is** lucky enough to have two such parents, the government shouldn’t be so fucking mean as to deny them recognition as a family. I don’t see anything excessive about finding that behavior outrageous. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2007, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samuel-cheney-has-two-mommies/405419/25 "2007-05-25T11:28:38Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] (snip) And this Admin is “fiscally conservative” like a drunken sailor. [/QUOTE] Really, I couldn’t be more pleased that we switched from the tax-and-Democrats to the borrow-and-spend Republicans. My children and grandchildren may be a little unhappy, but I’ll get out of paying for a lot of it, and that’s what’s important to me. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2007, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samuel-cheney-has-two-mommies/405419/26 "2007-05-25T14:28:51Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] That’d be relevant if children were actually affected by the official status of their caregivers on a day-to-day basis. [/QUOTE] More accurately, it would be relevant if the family in question were not part of the aristocracy and actually had to honor the laws that have been enacted to control the underclass. There’s no way the immediate relatives of the Cheney clan don’t get whatever they want whenever they want it. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2007, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samuel-cheney-has-two-mommies/405419/27 "2007-05-25T14:39:24Z")
[Here](http://www.cwfa.org/articles/13053/CFI/family/index.htm) is the take of “Concerned Women for America.” Heather Poe and her family have no legal right to the child. If Mary should die, the child could be put in foster care and never see Heather or her family again. If Heather dies without a will, the child will not inherit anything from her estate. If Heather leaves everything to Mary, her family could contest the will and leave Samuel and Mary with nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2007, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samuel-cheney-has-two-mommies/405419/28 "2007-05-25T14:46:06Z")
[QUOTE=Annie-Xmas] [Here](http://www.cwfa.org/articles/13053/CFI/family/index.htm) is the take of “Concerned Women for America.” [/QUOTE] Indeed! I quote from them: [QUOTE=Concerned Women for America] The Fox News Channel, which in the past has at least made an effort to avoid liberal bias and political correctness in its reporting, has covered the story with the PC caption: Dick Cheney’s Daughter & Lesbian Partner Give Birth to Boy. [/QUOTE] An organisation which thinks that Fox News is liberal and PC must be so far out in the right field that they are not only outside the ball park, they must be somewhere outside the parking lot! ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2007, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samuel-cheney-has-two-mommies/405419/29 "2007-05-25T14:48:18Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] There is some common ground between [neoliberalism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism) and [neoconservatism,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism) but there is a difference and what this Admin practices is mostly the latter. You can tell by the corpses and the refugees. And this Admin is “fiscally conservative” like a drunken sailor. [/QUOTE] Well, I meant in terms of privatizing everything they are fiscally conservative, but that this is the only place where I can see them actually having conservative values. I think the Christian Right is one of the biggest jokes played on the world. For the most part they are a bunch of gangsters who figured out a way to get power by mouthing the right cultural platitudes. The modern politician is ruled more by statistics than ideology. “My constituency believes this, then so do I.”, it has it’s benefits and drawbacks. Sure, what they ‘say’ is conservative, but what they ‘do’ is liberal. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2007, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samuel-cheney-has-two-mommies/405419/30 "2007-05-25T16:45:10Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] Well, I meant in terms of privatizing everything they are fiscally conservative, but that this is the only place where I can see them actually having conservative values. I think the Christian Right is one of the biggest jokes played on the world. For the most part they are a bunch of gangsters who figured out a way to get power by mouthing the right cultural platitudes. The modern politician is ruled more by statistics than ideology. “My constituency believes this, then so do I.”, it has it’s benefits and drawbacks. Sure, what they ‘say’ is conservative, but what they ‘do’ is liberal. [/QUOTE] Bush may be poison at the ballot box in 2008, but I do not believe you are going to succeed in recasting his administration as liberal. What next, as you going to call him a “stealth Democrat”? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2007, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samuel-cheney-has-two-mommies/405419/31 "2007-05-25T16:47:50Z")
[QUOTE=Evil Captor] Bush may be poison at the ballot box in 2008, but I do not believe you are going to succeed in recasting his administration as liberal. What next, as you going to call him a “stealth Democrat”? [/QUOTE] Liberal and Democrat are not synonyms. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2007, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samuel-cheney-has-two-mommies/405419/32 "2007-05-25T18:08:54Z")
[QUOTE=Cervaise] More accurately, it would be relevant if the family in question were not part of the aristocracy and actually had to honor the laws that have been enacted to control the underclass. There’s no way the immediate relatives of the Cheney clan don’t get whatever they want whenever they want it. [/QUOTE] Of course, legally, Heather Poe isn’t a part of the Cheney family. If she and Mary split ways, and Mary decides to play hardball with the shared assets, including custody, Heather is pretty much screwed. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2007, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samuel-cheney-has-two-mommies/405419/33 "2007-05-25T18:34:50Z")
[QUOTE=Duckster] Keith Olbermann was quite good on [announcing the birth](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18842749/) : [/QUOTE] Well, Mary Cheney lives in Great Falls, which is right on the Maryland border. If this is an important enough issue for her, she can move one town over into Maryland, which allows second-parent adoption. This doesn’t take Virginia off the hook, but if Cheney and her partner are actually worried about this, they have an easy out. Also, [Virginia](http://www.equalityvirginia.org/site/pp.asp?c=9eIDJJNoHmE&b=303512) does allow temporary guardianship such that it’s not quiet as dire as Olbermann makes it sound: > [@](#): > > Standby Guardianship > > Virginia has a statute that allows a legal parent to name a “standby guardian,” who is empowered to care for a child during the legal parent’s disability or incompetence, or for 30 days after the legal parent’s death. After thirty days, the standby guardian must petition a court to be appointed guardian of the child or the standby guardianship becomes invalid. The legal parent retains full parental rights to the child even after the beginning of the standby guardian’s authority, and may revoke the standby guardianship at any time prior to a court appointment of a guardian. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2007, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samuel-cheney-has-two-mommies/405419/34 "2007-05-25T18:36:14Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] Of course, legally, Heather Poe isn’t a part of the Cheney family. If she and Mary split ways, and Mary decides to play hardball with the shared assets, including custody, Heather is pretty much screwed. [/QUOTE] Depends on what her name is on. They still could be considered a ‘General Partnership’ in terms of assets. However, obviously they would choose the biological Mother in terms of custody of the child, as they should IMO. Other than that she’d be screwed by being on the wrong end of “One of us is the daughter of the Vice President”. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2007, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samuel-cheney-has-two-mommies/405419/35 "2007-05-25T18:55:51Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] However, obviously they would choose the biological Mother in terms of custody of the child, as they should IMO. [/QUOTE] Can you clarify what you mean, here? Poe may very well be unable to get so much as visitation rights if she and Cheney were to split up. I don’t have too much of a problem with the courts favoring the biological mother when determining custody arrangements, all else being equal, but as a co-parent of the kid since its birth, Poe ought to have some claim to the kid, as well. I do not think, under the law, that she has any rights to the kid she’s now raising, unless Cheney deigns to grant her those rights. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2007, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samuel-cheney-has-two-mommies/405419/36 "2007-05-25T19:00:20Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] Can you clarify what you mean, here? Poe may very well be unable to get so much as visitation rights if she and Cheney were to split up. I don’t have too much of a problem with the courts favoring the biological mother when determining custody arrangements, all else being equal, but as a co-parent of the kid since its birth, Poe ought to have some claim to the kid, as well. I do not think, under the law, that she has any rights to the kid she’s now raising, unless Cheney deigns to grant her those rights. [/QUOTE] Yeah, that’s a toughy. I tend to agree with you, but for the most part one of them would have to be incredibly shady for those rights to be taken away. If my ex-wife who has never met my daughter wanted to come hang out with her, I would be cool with that. I don’t know much about it, but how does it work with step-Fathers? Say I meet some incredibly hot chick, who is so great and wonderful and all that I want to adopt her yet to be born child. We tie the knot so I can do so right when the baby is born. 5 years later we decide that we were young and stupid and got all gushy and romantic and it’s just not working out the way we’d planned, so we get a divorce. How are custody cases handled then? I imagine as the notion of gay unions becomes more commonplace the rulings will tend to reflect this scenario and come more and more to disregard the gender of the S.O. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2007, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samuel-cheney-has-two-mommies/405419/37 "2007-05-26T13:11:01Z")
Well, I hope Grandpa Cheney will step in to teach Samuel some “manly” skills, like hunting. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2007, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samuel-cheney-has-two-mommies/405419/38 "2007-05-26T16:05:02Z")
“It’s duck season!” “Lawyer season!” “No, its duck season”… ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2007, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samuel-cheney-has-two-mommies/405419/39 "2007-05-26T16:12:51Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] I don’t know much about it, but how does it work with step-Fathers? Say I meet some incredibly hot chick, who is so great and wonderful and all that I want to adopt her yet to be born child. We tie the knot so I can do so right when the baby is born. 5 years later we decide that we were young and stupid and got all gushy and romantic and it’s just not working out the way we’d planned, so we get a divorce. How are custody cases handled then? I imagine as the notion of gay unions becomes more commonplace the rulings will tend to reflect this scenario and come more and more to disregard the gender of the S.O. [/QUOTE] If you go through with a legal adoption, then you’re the legal father (not a stepfather, a father) and that’s that. If you’re just a step parent but you do not file for a legal adoption, then I think you’re off the hook. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2007, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samuel-cheney-has-two-mommies/405419/40 "2007-05-26T16:34:10Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] I don’t know much about it, but how does it work with step-Fathers? Say I meet some incredibly hot chick, who is so great and wonderful and all that I want to adopt her yet to be born child. We tie the knot so I can do so right when the baby is born. 5 years later we decide that we were young and stupid and got all gushy and romantic and it’s just not working out the way we’d planned, so we get a divorce. How are custody cases handled then? I imagine as the notion of gay unions becomes more commonplace the rulings will tend to reflect this scenario and come more and more to disregard the gender of the S.O. [/QUOTE] If you are named as the legal father on the birth certificate and nobody has challenged your paternity, it will be a standard custordy case. If someone does challenge your parternity and demand DNA testing and you’re not the genetic father, it will be the court’s decision about how to proceed. The genetic father could step up and demand custody or visitation. These cases are very, very difficult. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samuel-cheney-has-two-mommies/405419.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samuel-cheney-has-two-mommies/405419.md?page=3)