# Samurai and other sword fighting **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 3, 2016, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samurai-and-other-sword-fighting/742039 "2016-01-03T03:03:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samurai-and-other-sword-fighting/742039/61 "2016-01-05T08:27:22Z")
> [@the\_diego](#): > > Nah. They’re meant to crack armor, or cut through shorter, lighter swords. There are [some accounts](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zweih%C3%A4nder#Application) of Zweihänders being used for anti-pike work. Certainly [the units](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppels%C3%B6ldner) that carried them were closely tied to an anti-pike role in accounts and visual depictions of the period. ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samurai-and-other-sword-fighting/742039/62 "2016-01-05T08:34:11Z")
Yes, heavy dos manos are unusual in that they were meant to be battlefield weapons. It may have been what URN was referring to but the more common one, the long sword, was a sheathed weapon used in either single combat or drawn when fighting comes to within spitting distance. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samurai-and-other-sword-fighting/742039/63 "2016-01-05T09:30:04Z")
“Cutting” it a bit of a decoration, when talking about those; they were closer to being aerodynamic metal staves than to being sharp implements. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samurai-and-other-sword-fighting/742039/64 "2016-01-05T09:39:27Z")
All the Zweihänder replicas I’ve seen could be just as sharp as a single-handed sword, and could cut you just as easily. The effect is more like an axe than a sabre, but that’s exactly what you need for chopping pikes. ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samurai-and-other-sword-fighting/742039/65 "2016-01-05T10:30:29Z")
I’ll still consider pike-chopping as situational, wherein sword-wielders are able to come within chopping distance of pike men without encountering cavalry or a shower of lead and arrows. Or if they encounter a well-organized schiltron (Robert the Bruce’s long spears), protected by archers and sword-armed infantry. [thearma.org](http://thearma.org) further states that, while two handed great swords really were used to hack out breaches into an enemy’s pike square, it became nearly useless in a close melee once that breach was entered into. Imagine the doppelsoldners out front, hacking at the enemy pikes, and then letting the regular infantry in the rear to engage the enemy at close quarters. That’s why by the middle of the 16th century, the two-handed great sword no longer saw regular use. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samurai-and-other-sword-fighting/742039/66 "2016-01-05T11:13:08Z")
> [@the\_diego](#): > > That’s why by the middle of the 16th century, the two-handed great sword no longer saw regular use. I think that’s got a lot more to do with the improved state of both artillery and small arms. A massed pike formation still offers some small defence against archery - against bullets, none whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samurai-and-other-sword-fighting/742039/67 "2016-01-05T11:26:44Z")
What about the Frankish axe? Wasnt that designed to be thrown and would break a shield? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samurai-and-other-sword-fighting/742039/68 "2016-01-05T12:55:03Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I think that’s got a lot more to do with the improved state of both artillery and small arms. A massed pike formation still offers some small defence against archery - against bullets, none whatsoever. With dopplesoldners it was more caused by pikes being improved by adding bracing metal going a foot or two down the shaft. Made lopping off pike heads no longer practical. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samurai-and-other-sword-fighting/742039/69 "2016-01-05T18:39:25Z")
> [@pianodave](#): > > Hi, > > I’m confused. > > I understand how useful swords are, but spears? They are a long pole with a blade at the end. You are exposed when you reach out. Sure, if you hit your target, great, but they are long and go in one direction. With a quick target that can evade your blow, you lose precious seconds in readying another thrust, because it’s such a big weapon. Your statement about it being a long pole with a blade at the end is the key. The blade is not the weapon, the staff is. And someone who knows how to use a staff will lay a major hurt on you. Stabbing is not the only method of attack. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samurai-and-other-sword-fighting/742039/70 "2016-01-05T18:40:06Z")
I fight western swords from the Italian rapier through 19th-century cavalry sabre, at a salle where we use the rules “what would really have happened.” Meaning, - We use full-weight weapons which are blunted. - Everything is target, and there is no right-of-way as in sport fencing. - Hand-to-hand is allowed (and encouraged), as are traps and disarms. - We sometimes have a main gauche or an improvised weapon (cloak, table leg, or even traffic cone once). The fights tend to periods of circling (compassing and traversing) for several seconds, sometimes as long as 15-20, with very brief, fast exchanges of attack-parry-riposte-parry-attack-parry-remise, then you break apart and, if no credible touch is registered by the weapons master (or admitted to by the fighter), the circling and waiting for an opening continues. Sometimes you _will_ end up close with weapons locked, as both fighters will have a sudden “brain freeze,” but we’re not standing there growling or giving bad ass looks at each other, we’re both actually thinking “oh shit oh shit how do I get disengaged without opening myself up to an easy touch…” Since hand-to-hand is allowed, often those locked positions end with a punch, kick, body slam, even head-butt, rather than a true weapons disengage. Also, sometimes a disarmament can be done if can lever your opponents weapon quickly. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samurai-and-other-sword-fighting/742039/71 "2016-01-05T20:53:25Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > I fight western swords from the Italian rapier through 19th-century cavalry sabre, at a salle where we use the rules “what would really have happened.” Meaning, > > - We use full-weight weapons which are blunted. > - Everything is target, and there is no right-of-way as in sport fencing. > - Hand-to-hand is allowed (and encouraged), as are traps and disarms. > - We sometimes have a main gauche or an improvised weapon (cloak, table leg, or even traffic cone once). > > The fights tend to periods of circling (compassing and traversing) for several seconds, sometimes as long as 15-20, with very brief, fast exchanges of attack-parry-riposte-parry-attack-parry-remise, then you break apart and, if no credible touch is registered by the weapons master (or admitted to by the fighter), the circling and waiting for an opening continues. > > Sometimes you _will_ end up close with weapons locked, as both fighters will have a sudden “brain freeze,” but we’re not standing there growling or giving bad ass looks at each other, we’re both actually thinking “oh shit oh shit how do I get disengaged without opening myself up to an easy touch…” Since hand-to-hand is allowed, often those locked positions end with a punch, kick, body slam, even head-butt, rather than a true weapons disengage. Also, sometimes a disarmament can be done if can lever your opponents weapon quickly. Curious, do the weapons ever break when you do this? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samurai-and-other-sword-fighting/742039/72 "2016-01-05T21:53:52Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Curious, do the weapons ever break when you do this? I can’t speak for **Una Persson** , but in my experience - oh yes they do. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samurai-and-other-sword-fighting/742039/73 "2016-01-06T01:55:25Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Curious, do the weapons ever break when you do this? Yes, but surprisingly uncommonly, considering the force we use (sport electric weapons tend to break more often due to the fact that you tend to fence a lot more touches with the lighter weapons, and the groves in the blades to allow the wire to pass through (epee and foil) weaken the blade.) In terms of the martial arts weapons, I’ve broken 2 sabres, 4 court swords, and 2 rapiers. Replacement blades are sold, and broken guards, grips, and other parts can be often repaired from other spares. Several small companies specialize in selling both parts and complete weapons. Blades run from $69 to $200 for the martial arts weapons. Blades are full-weight, but not sharpened, and with a metal cap and padding over the tip. Injuries result from weapon breakage. I skewered Fierra once when my court sword broke, going about half an inch into her thigh through her protective gear. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2019, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/samurai-and-other-sword-fighting/742039/75 "2019-08-09T20:52:46Z")
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