Woeg,
No worries. I think your experience is valid and I extend my apologies as well. Even stevens?
I’m cool, man 
Nothing like having two people with passionate beliefs in their studies buttin’ heads! Thank you.
Artemius,
I suspect that I am not making myself very clear about several issues. I will try to do so in light of your post.
Actually, I don’t trust you. I do not know you, and I have never seen your technique. I know of a few people who have been through one of Hayes’ programs. Some are skilled, some are not.
I am not asking you to trust me. I would be happy to point you to a relevant treatise concerning all of the points I am making. Almost all of them are available on the internet. This is not secret, shadowy knowledge. It is there for anyone and everyone to understand. We do not shroud ourselves in mystique.
Yes, I am quite sure I would be skewered by your Japanese grand master swordsman. I am a student of fence, I make no claims to special skill or mastery. I train hard, and have many years left to go. A more instructive contest would be your Japanese grand master against my fencing master.
Your remarks indicate that you lack any experience training with western swordsmen. I admit my lack of knowledge of eastern technique and make no claims about it. I would appreciate the same courtesy from you.
I think there are a few issues here worth addressing.
First, if it were a tightrope walking contest, I would agree with you 100%. While agility and balance are essential for quality swordplay, superior agility and balance do not predictably result in victory. Second, it is very difficult to knock over a man in a 15th century battle harness. While this may not be balance in any conventional sense, the fact still remains that in a grappling contest, which frequently occurs in armored fighting, superior unarmed balance is considerably less relevant.
First, I would clarify by saying that my arms are not rigidly locked in an arbitrary position. I do not need to displace them much at all to make a deadly cut.
Second, I believe that you are incorrect with respect to kinetic energy and lethality. I also believe that this error reveals a fundamental misunderstanding about fencing with a deadly weapon.
My longsword’s blade is about 35 inches long. It is made of steel, and with the right equipment I could hone both the true and the false edges razor sharp. It weights perhaps four pounds. Cutting through flesh and bone with this weapon requires virtually no force at all, for the weapon itself does all of the work on a properly delivered cut. For example, imagine a loaf of hard-crusted French bread. You have a large bread knife to divide it. You can maximize your kinetic energy by cleaving downward onto the bread, or you can softly draw the knife across the top of the bread. Which will yield better results? I leave it to you to find out.
Use of excessive force is unhelpful in lethal combat. The most violent swordsmen are typically the most inexperienced swordsmen.
If you are interested in the German longsword technique that I practice from time to time, there are several treatises available at AEMMA. Many are even translated, for your convenience. See especially Hans Talhoffer and Paulus Mair.
Like Bruce Lee said, “boards don’t hit back.” If you were going to undercut your own example, why bother bringing it up?
Yes, yes, always the “privileged knowledge” with so many eastern martial arts types. Well, you are cordially invited to my salle d’armes any time to see what we do. I suspect that some knowledge of western martial arts would refine your views considerably. It would be an eye-opening experience. Bet you didn’t know that Bruce Lee’s writings are heavily informed by western fencing theory. His parry-riposte timing of jeet kune do is practically lifted from the great masters of the west. My fencing master trained his brother.
[/quote]
But I am saying that you might want to reflect upon your own prejudices regarding the subject.
[/quote]
Prejudices? Risible. I was a shaolin/hung gar kung fu student before I turned to the western martial arts. I have nothing but respect for serious practicioners of the martial arts of asia. I have been investigating a ju-jitsu school to begin training there as well. I believe that there is something valuable to be learned from every serious sytem of martial arts.
What I object to is the privileged knowledge, humorous secrecy, and humorous bias of not only eastern martial artists but of the public at large, conditioned by television, film, and bad novels to believe in the innate superiority of one martial culture over another.
It’s not arrogant at all. It is a pretty obvious and well-recognized cultural phenomenon in America. The enduring popularity of the television show Kung Fu, the obsession with the Hong Kong action movie industry, and the prevalence of fun but absurd fighting games is representative of this, dare I say, discourse.
For what it’s worth, I study the classical weapons as well as rapier and smallsword. I am not a medieval fencer. And nothing would give me greater pleasure than to learn Japanese swordsmanship, but for the most part, the pedagogy is crap. Hell, some of my fencing colleagues are Japanese martial arts expats. Even in New York City either the teaching quality is poor, the technique is sportive kendo, or the technique is geared towards practicing forms and slicing open melons. Find me a good school of martial Japanese swordsmanship and I would love to go and learn.
Feel like picking up a foil?
What in the hell are you talking about? Are you listening to yourself talk here? Trust, know me? Ever heard the expression, “firm grasp of the obvious.”? Look, I don’t claim to be an expert swordsman or a swordsman at all these days. I only brought up my experience with Hayes because I wanted you to know I had some experience (a very long time ago). I don’t have a frickin’ technique. I’m sure some people have trained with your teacher that have unequal levels of skill. I do know you are starting to come across like an egotistical know-it-all.
I don’t need to review your frickin’ “treatise” nor do I need to refer you to one to validate my points (if I even could find one) for you to acknowledge what I am saying. You’re the only one talking about secret, shadowy knowledge. Don’t worry, I don’t trust you either. Duh
That was actually what I meant to infer (a contest between masters)
That’s right, no experience. I’m not sure what you are so defensive about.
I can’t say this with absolute certainty but a savvy but smaller Japanese swordsman isn’t going to grapple with a larger anglo knight. A ninja might wrap you up in his arms and legs and try to stick a spike in an opening. But, you’d be surprised what I’ve seen them do. During the grandmaster’s first trip to the US in ’86 (he’s actually not called that but it’s been 18 yrs and I’m beginning to forget things) I was selected from our dojo to be a “dummystrator” (ie. Got thrown around, hit, and twisted into a pretzle and expected to bounce back on my feet and was thrilled to do so, BTW). This 55’ish little man packed more power into deceptively innocent moves than you can imagine. I know, I was on the receiving end. Agility and balance coupled with a lower center of gravity is, IMO, extremely important. You can believe it or not. And no one is difficult to knock over if they are off balance enough.
Hmmm….your opponent is wearing 50lbs of metal armour or hardened wood/leather armour? You’re going to attack with strokes eminating from a small sphere of movement and pierce this armour? When did you switch to fencing? We’re not talking about fencing. You might want to start another thread on that. Who has a fundamental misunderstanding?
Also, katana swordsmen use different strokes to set up attacks from different angles: up to down, down to up, side to side, oblique to oblique. I know you know that and am not trying to insult your intelligence.
Please, I did go to school and am a board certified foot and ankle surgeon. I know all about sharp edges. Slices thru metal armour, eh? How about the lacquered hardened wood/leather samurai armour?
[QUOTE]
Use of excessive force is unhelpful in lethal combat. The most violent swordsmen are typically the most inexperienced swordsmen.
[QUOTE]
Who said anything about excessive force? You match the force required for the situation. Don’t they teach that to western swordsmen? (a joke, just kidding)
Just trying to be fair and humble but still make a point. Incidentally, how many opponents have you met in real combat and sliced open? Kinda’ hard to practice on real people with a sword, wouldn’t you agree?
Look, quit trying to read things into my words. The only reason I said I knew things that you don’t was because you didn’t mention any experience in eastern swordsmanship and I do. I don’t claim to have any knowledge of the subject that anyone else couldn’t obtain.
[QUOTE]
Well, you are cordially invited to my salle d’armes any time to see what we do. I suspect that some knowledge of western martial arts would refine your views considerably. It would be an eye-opening experience. Bet you didn’t know that Bruce Lee’s writings are heavily informed by western fencing theory. His parry-riposte timing of jeet kune do is practically lifted from the great masters of the west. My fencing master trained his brother.
[QUOTE]
You know, you’d come across a lot less arrogant and still make your point if you’d give up the attempt at trying to impress me. Guess what—you don’t. “Salle d’armes”, give me a break, will ya’?
From what I’ve read, Bruce Lee was influenced by a lot of different disciplines. Also, for me, Bruce Lee’s fighting style isn’t practical so I could really care less about using him as an example. Ninjitsu appealed to me because “anything goes”, whatever works is the style. If biting your ear off wins the day then so-be-it.
No one is espousing “privileged knowledge” and “humurous secrecy and bias” except you; or, at least not me. But you are so biased and prejudiced yourself that when someone like me actually dares to disagree with you, out comes those traits.
Hey, it’s a free country. Go right ahead if that’s your cup of tea. I still question your motives and that’s my right.
No, not unless it’s aluminum, because I have no problem accepting that you’d make me look foolish.
Can we drop this shit and agree to disagree?
funny
This is beginning to border on the absurd.
Yes, I am quite careful in what I am saying. You ask me to “trust you” that an “inside move” exists. Yet you also claim that you have little experience, and what you did have was a long time ago. So no, I do not take your word for it. I also do not believe that a “firm grasp of the obvious” is enough. What is obvious to many about all sorts of disciplines is manifestly incorrect. If you can discuss this technique in some detail or can point me to a treatise where this is discussed, I would be happy to review it. If you cannot bring any analysis or evidence to bear on this or on any other technique, I am afraid that I am just not going to take your word for it. Sorry. I hope it doesn’t keep you up at night.
I don’t think so, Artemius. I simply believe that in some issues, there are correct answers and there are incorrect answers. There is knowledge and there is ignorance. I am certainly no master and there is a vast amount that I do not know. It simply doesn’t require an awful lot of knowledge to discuss gratuitous assertions made in error. I relish the chance to consider other points of view. But if the extent of your knowledge is the ability to assert and say “that’s my story and I’m stickin’ to it,” then perhaps you are not the best person to be having this discussion with. Sorry once again.
What does “acknowledge” mean? I read what you said, and I responded to it. You are annoyed that I just don’t take what you say on faith alone? None of my knowledge is shadowy. It is right out in the open for anyone to have a look at. For free, on the internet. I am not asking you to take anything I say on faith alone. If you don’t want to verify anything I say for reasons of your own, well, that’s fine, it’s your time. But at the end of the day, I believe the record speaks for itself.
You must be incredibly subtle. Generally, when people use the word “you” as the subject of a sentence when talking to me, I generally infer that the person is actually talking to me. Not an implied master in the background.
Of course I believe it. I have seen what little guys who have been training their whole lives can do, and it’s outstanding.
There are two points here. You argue that a smaller eastern fighter is not about to grapple a larger, armored western fighter. You also argue that it is not difficult to knock someone over if he is off balance enough. Granted, this seems quite reasonable in my experience. That being the case, if not for grappling, how do you propose that a lighter fighter would create a scenario in which an armored fighter is off balance?
Hint: in order to move successfully in armor, one must move from his center. There has been a great deal of discussion by the masters of western martial arts for the past five hundred years about this. See especially Fiore dei Liberi’s Flos Duellatorum. There is a great little illustration that describes moving from one’s center very nicely.
I fence with a foil, I fence with a longsword, two armored guys fence with polearms. I think this is just a little term confusion. “Fence” is scientific, systematized self-defense with a weapon. Hope that clears it up. According to my use, samurai fence with katanas. It’s a pretty general term. People who just whack at each other with no knowledge or art are not fencing.
The best draw cut in the world probably won’t slice through metal armor. That’s not the point, Artemius. You suggested that somehow failure to displace the arms significantly would not generate enough kinetic energy to make a good cut. This is a total canard for reasons that I discussed. It takes hardly any energy to cleave flesh, and you don’t use the edge of a sword on full harness. That’s what axes are for. You want to fight a guy in armor? You use the point.
Samurai use, to the best of my knowledge, draw cuts to penetrate armor. I have every reason to believe that levered draw cuts with a western longsword would do the same. I have never tried this nor seen this done, so this is just supposition.
Speaking of egotistical, what exactly does your profession as a surgeon have anything to do with this discussion? Thanks in advance for the clarification.
Of course. I have never been in an armed confrontation with anyone using sharp weapons. I take this question to be in reference to my comment that boards don’t hit back. It’s a fair point. However, I would argue that fencing epee or rapier against someone with a point d’arret (a cap on the end of the blade with three or four sharp points that really stings on impact) is a better approximation of a combative situation than breaking a board or slicing a melon. YMMV.
Let me get this straight. You can use the correct term for your school, dojo, but I cannot use the correct term for mine without coming across as a dickhead? Why do you think I am trying to impress you? Really, I am quite curious.
My interpretation of Jeet Kune Do is rather different. It is one of the most practical, innovative, and utterly modern systems of martial arts around. Don’t take my word for it. From The Tao of Jeet Kune Do by Bruce Lee:
It’s a great book, for eastern and western martial artists.
You are absolutely right. I am terribly biased and prejudiced at what I perceive to be dogged ignorance. May that be written on my tombstone. Disagree all you like. Better yet, I invite anyone with superior knowledge to disagree with me. Believe me, I would appreciate it. I am not faulting your disagreement, just your analysis.
Alrighty then, what exactly are my motives? I have to admit, I am pretty curious.
Looking foolish is hardly the issue. I figured that if you wanted me to learn more about eastern swordsmanship to have a good discussion, you might be interested in doing the same. My remark was hardly a summons to any kind of contest, just an invitation to see what I do and what my art is capable of. You might just like it.
That’s a bit of a non-starter. You can disagree all you want. Your right, remember? It’s why we presumably enjoy this message board. It’s been a fun discussion, and I do hope that you are not as upset and defensive as your words sound to me.
If you are asking me to spontaneously accept what you are saying as somehow valid and logically grounded, well, no can do. I am sure you can live with that.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Maeglin *
This is beginning to border on the absurd.
**
Yes, this is becoming absurd. But, I can continue for as long as you wish. I made it thru Hell Week in UDT/BUDS school in 1972 (now known as SEAL school) but medical’d out later. Dogged determination is one of my stronger traits.
If I said it, then by all means, retract any request for you to trust me. I have enough experience whether you would like to believe it or not to know what I’m saying is valid. I’ve no wish to discuss anything in detail and if you would’ve paid attention to my original post as someone else didn’t your ego wouldn’t have reared it’s ugly head. In fact, you were free to well, fuck off :), quite frankly. Keep me up at night? You really do flatter yourself.
[QUOTE]
**I don’t think so, Artemius. I simply believe that in some issues, there are correct answers and there are incorrect answers. There is knowledge and there is ignorance. I am certainly no master and there is a vast amount that I do not know. It simply doesn’t require an awful lot of knowledge to discuss gratuitous assertions made in error. I relish the chance to consider other points of view. But if the extent of your knowledge is the ability to assert and say “that’s my story and I’m stickin’ to it,” then perhaps you are not the best person to be having this discussion with. Sorry once again./
[QUOTE]
**
Since you admittedly have no experience in eastern swordsmanship how would you know if my answers are incorrect? Don’t fall victim to your own line of logic and then be faced with swallowing your own ignorance. Your ego might not be able to handle it and you’d might have to fall on your sword.
What gratuitous assertions that you made in error are you referring to? And it is painfully obvious you are not the one to discuss eastern swordsmanship with because even I, with my little experience, appear to have more experience than even you. So sorry. Hope that doesn’t keep you up at night.
**
Where did I say I was annoyed? There you go making up things as you go along. And there you go, again, using that term “shadowy”, when I have never uttered the word except to ask you why you keep using it. What is it with you and “shadowy” “hidden”, and “secret”? I really don’t care what you have to say because my original post still stands. You have your high-minded opinion (and that’s all it is unless you are here to announce that you’ve fought a Samurai) and I have mine.
**
Generally, when people go around assuming things they make an ass of themselves. At any rate, I made a clarification for which you now childishly try to make an argument out of.
**
Via the same skill and forces that a seemingly unimpressive 55’ish Japanese fellow used to repeatedly knock me on my ass and inflict pain with virtual ease. I outweighted the little bastard by a good 30 lbs and had 25 yrs on him.
**
Yes, but if my CG is lower than yours, I have the advantage (other parameters being not too disproportional). Why do you think running backs are relatively shorter than defensive backs and linemen? It’s tougher to tackle them or knock them off balance.
**
You should make yourself more clear in the future.
**
I think I made that point before but your delicate ego breezed over that (using the point for armour). So you are saying let’s keep those hands within a small sphere right in front of me so that I can effectively stab my opponents armour? Also, if I want to lop off your head I don’t care how sharp your frickin’ blade is. You’d better take a full wind-up. So your argument is not valid in that case. You left out ligaments, cartilage, and bone – something I know a little about.
**
You are welcome. I guess your over-inflated ego is a little catchy. But, actually, it was in reference to your condescending knife and how to cut a bread loaf example. That got a laugh out of me. Give me a #10 blade on a Bard handle and I’ll show you what cutting through human flesh is like. On the way down to bone I’ll describe the different layers and anatomy as well, then sew everything back up, layer by layer, all nice and neat.
**
Maybe, maybe not. They both have their specific learning objectives.
**
That’s correct. I think most people know what a frickin’ dojo is. Whatever it was that you said would leave most people scratching their noggins. You could have clarified.
You probably aren’t intentionally trying to impress me but you got all puffed up when I dared to disagree with the “legend in his own mind” swordsman Maeglin. Otherwise there’s no reasonable explanation for your expending so much energy responding to such an inexperienced little ‘ole has been swordsman who is nothing but words on an internet forum. Me? I just do it to piss you off for entertainment.
**
Written on your tombstone? You want to take the fantasy of who would win a real fight between a samurai or knight to your frickin’ grave? Are you married? Have kids? I need to wrap this up so I can hop in my Z3, pop a top on a Coors, and head down to the driving range.
“Superior knowledge” you say? So now you’re using descriptives such as “superior”. You aren’t German or Nordic by any chance?
**
I wouldn’t want to venture a guess and, besides, that’s not my specialty, but I bet a clinically trained psychologist could tell you.
**
Man, you just keep on making assumptions. When did I ever say I wanted you to learn eastern swordsmanship from me? I was offering what I knew and you were free to accept or reject it. I could care less. I never even wanted a discussion but here I am.
You know what? I concede I might enjoy and like what your art is capable of doing. But guess what? I don’t have time for it.
**
Upset? Defensive? If I “whiff” some balls tonight I’ll blame it all on you.
**
You can accept whatever you like. At this point, who cares?
I swear I hit the submit button only once.
And I could have sworn this was IMHO, not the BBQ Pit or Great Debates. The both of you can knock it off NOW.
Hey, Czarism—Go fuck yourself. Maeglin & I handle handle this ourselves without your momma-go-lightly interference. If you don’t like it here, feel free to go somewhere else and don’t let the door hit your ass on the way out. (I said all that in a kind, loving, caring, gentle way and I love you like a brother. :))
Moderator’s note:
I need to remind you about the rules of engagement here, Artemis.
Limit your blows to ideas, not posters. Comments about “delicate, inflated egos”, etc. are out of bounds and will not be tolerated. Neither will posting (quote) “just to piss people off” be permitted. That’s considered trolling and legitimate grounds for banning.
Consider yourself warned.
TVeblen,
IMHO mod
Look, Oh mighty moderator TVeblen, Maeglin already has me irritated because by the time I got thru with posting and some other stuff came up, it was too late to get out to the driving range.
First of all, quit being a hyprocirte. It’s O.K. for others to accuse me of things I didn’t say or imply(what? you didn’t check your facts?) but not O.K. to point out the obvious (except to the mentally disabled) misgivings in what they are saying?
Secondly, quit getting on your highhorse and talking banning. You’re the moderator and should be taking a position of the higher road. Talk pit, not banning. At this stage, I’m itchin’ for the pit.
Thirdly, Czarism, Maeglin, and Waeg, are you men or mice? We may frickin’ disagree and have less than stellar opionions about each other, but I’d step in and back you up if you got threatened with being banned.
Second thought. This is only an internet forum. TVeblen, go ahead and ban me because don’t give a flyin’ fuck.
One other minor point, VTBlen, it’s Artemius to you.
Moderator’s note:
Ah Grasshopper, one loses the battle with loss of control over self.
Sayonara.
TVeblen,
IMHO mod
Wow, didn’t mean to strike a nerve, mods. I certainly didn’t think I was over the top. I’ll think twice before posting on stuff like this in IMHO in the future. Sorry to have made any trouble.
Oh, and Artemius, it’s Czarcasm to you.
All this talk about the tremendous prowess of samurai, ninja, knights in shining armor, or what have you, I have this to say:
If those guys could train to be what they are now rumored to be in their days, guys today can still be better trained; then we can really learn truly what the guys of the past could really do, by contriving situations of the past and making the present guys carry themselves to acquit themselves. I am sure that a lot of those reports were exaggerated fiction, that got more and more stupendous with every telling.
My contention is that those guys of the past were just ordinary people, but better gifted and trained than the general average guys, certainly not superb guys in combat skills and endurance.
Consider the facts of life and everyday living:
One has to take a crap and a leak every so often; and it was very troublesome to carry out these procedures during those pre-technological times.
One gets sick every so often even more frequently in those unhealthy days of ignorant ways and beliefs. Just imagine the gastrointestinal troubles plaguing those guys continually; and boils, hemorrhoids, fistulas, headaches, arthritis, muscle pains, high blood pressure, the toll from high blood sugar. You name it, the ailments and health limitations of today, and they had them.
One has got to eat and drink every so often; and they did not have our vitamins, food supplements, and high protein meals. And where did they manage to get their foods and drinks, and prepare them. While they were busy with these details of staying alive and well and functional, did they not lose time for training and staying on guard?
When those guys got horny, they had to attend to that need also, and got in trouble or into all kinds of complications from satisfying their horny nature, not different from us today with our even more accentuated horniness from all the saturated emphasis on sex of our current society.
Then all those guys got lonely and feel lonesome also, owing to which they had to go home and stay with their families; how then could they then develop all those amazing martial gifts we read about. Read about, that’s about all there is to these terrific guys and their superhuman feats.
To make a long story short, they were just a bunch of Dons Quixotes de La Mancha.
Susma Rio Sep
Let me ask you guys this: Who today do you think would win a fight? An america football player/rugby player vs. a japnese… what? Baseball player?
Now before I get flamed it’s just a parallel and yes, I’m and ex-karate instructor, but you’ve got to keep in mind the fighting styles. What type of knight? What weapon with a samurai? A katana? A naginata? (both?)
Are we talking fencing? They are pretty precise at their strikes! Kendo, Japanese fencing, is also precise but it’s totally different in terms of strike points where points are awarded.
If we are talking about a heavily armored knight vs a light armored samurai, the samurai better be damn quick when they get a chance to make a strike. And they better make use of how light their armor is because only one hit with a heavy broad sword is all it will take.
I think a light armored knight fencing style vs a samurai with a Katana would make one interesting fight. Both are extremely disciplined fighting styles. The katana, a superior weapon in this case to a regular fencing sword or even a sabre.
As far as samurai being some kind of super natural hero, that’s the hype that sells the movies. Modern fencers are extremely skilled and it takes years of exercise and practicing form and technique before fencers are even allowed to go into a match!
But comparing a Samurai to a heavy armored knight is like putting a Praying mantis in a jar with a Scorpion. The scorpion in better equipped to take damage and it’s blows are more deadly to a mantis.
I enjoy returning to this thread about as much as salting a wound, but I did want to say something a little more positive. For the most part, I do agree with Thaidog. I think it’s a pretty silly question. I just object to those who believe in the superiority of one kind of fighting over another, no-things-considered. Good fighters are good fighters, and any match would be interesting to see.
A few things to consider. Is the knight wearing a full coverage “pot” helm? They protect your head really nicely, but you can hardly see a damn thing. What kind of terrain would they be fighting on? While fighters are pretty quick and maneuverable in armor, I suspect a knight would fall pretty hard over a root or rock or some such. What’s the temperature like? Fighting in armor when it’s hot sucks.
Suffice to say, I have no idea who would win. Might be fun to watch. Then again, it might not.
Personally, from what I’ve learned, it sounds like the following.
Knight has Armor and heavy weapon advantage(A knight’s sword is designed to punch through steel plate, If I’m not mistaken. Plus it’s fairly heavy in it’s own right, so it would be like getting hit with a crowbar if not worse).
Samurai has more agility, more speed and a sharper weapon.
The Knight’s Armor will cancel out roughly 90-95% of this sharper weapon advantage(the 5%-10% would be any chinks in the armor, unless those were protected by mail).
A Samurai would seem have the advantage as to avoiding getting hit, which is good, because with lighter(No?) armor, the samuari is probably only going to be able to take one or two good hits before he’s out of it.
A knight would have the advantage to deflecting blows just by the armor, so he could get hit more as long as it wasn’t it a vital spot. Though if he’s immobolized though some method, he’s screwed(okay, techinically the Samurai is as well, but the Samurai would seem to have fewer other options to get past the knights armor).
I’d give the Knight the advantage, assuming both are equally skilled and all other factors are neutral, but it would still probably be something worth watching. Mobility vs. Strong Defenses, one on one.
Unless I’ve gotten the wrong impression about something vital here, or I’m in the wrong thread.