# San Fran might rename 44 schools **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 15, 2020, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110 "2020-12-15T17:05:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![WalterBishop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/aeb1de/32.png) [@WalterBishop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WalterBishop)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2021, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/201 "2021-01-27T19:22:15Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > The Biden Administration is reportedly moving forward with plans to replace Andrew Jackson with Harriet Tubman. Why should we do that? It’s not like kids won’t know who Harriet Tubman is just because we don’t put her on the $20 bill! Plus, given her religiosity and the age in which she was raised, it’s _highly_ unlikely that she would believe that transwomen are women. So does she really _deserve_ to be on the $20? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2021, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/202 "2021-01-27T19:23:04Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > It’s a positive feedback cycle in the negative direction. Leading to what? I mean, seriously, why do you care? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2021, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/203 "2021-01-27T19:23:15Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I told you. It’s the reasoning behind it. It’s placating nuts and mobs. Which only leads to more nuts and mobs making more demands. Well, okay, I guess, but: if plebiscite after plebiscite ends up with voters voting to so rename, are you in favor of letting the voters just keep on winning and then making another such demand, or are you in favor of stopping them? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2021, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/204 "2021-01-27T19:24:13Z")
I told you why I care. Lol. Nothing good comes from emulating Neville Chamberlain and working to appease the crazy. It only emboldens the crazy. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2021, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/205 "2021-01-27T19:28:48Z")
Well, if we are going to have direct democracy making changes or setting policy, I’m absolutely fine with it if we are going to be actually consistent in letting direct democracy have that power. I don’t think most want that. I think most want direct democracy when it coincides with their preferences and judicial activism when direct democracy or representative democracy does not coincide with their preferences. Funny how that works. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2021, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/206 "2021-01-27T19:29:16Z")
Renaming a school from Jefferson Elementary to Elementary McElementaryface will lead to, uh, the rise of Hitler? And, your solution is, what? Banning school name changes? Requiring Federal approval before changing the name of a school or taking down a statue? Just saw your latest post – if you’re going to make this thread that general, I’m out. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2021, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/207 "2021-01-27T19:32:08Z")
I assume places like Berkeley renamed the schools long ago. ---
**Author:** ![WalterBishop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/aeb1de/32.png) [@WalterBishop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WalterBishop)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2021, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/208 "2021-01-27T19:33:06Z")
Octopus is right. Appeasing hardcore identitarians only emboldens them. Militants tend to suffer from a psychological compulsion to outdo one another. Now that this measure has passed, I think it’s likely that similar measures will start passing in other districts. It may take some time, 20 or 30 years perhaps, but I wouldn’t be surprised if, at some point in the future, naming something after Lincoln will be considered an act of overt racism. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2021, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/209 "2021-01-27T19:40:41Z")
Well, at least you’re keeping this all in perspective. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2021, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/210 "2021-01-27T19:46:53Z")
> [@WalterBishop](#): > > Octopus is right. Appeasing hardcore identitarians only emboldens them. Militants tend to suffer from a psychological compulsion to outdo one another. Now that this measure has passed, I think it’s likely that similar measures will start passing in other districts. Oh no! Other schools might be renamed too? How terrible! Wait…why is this bad again? I mean, if you suffer from this psychological compulsion to keep names the same, it only emboldens the crazies who can’t handle change. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2021, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/211 "2021-01-27T19:48:06Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Well, if we are going to have direct democracy making changes or setting policy, I’m absolutely fine with it if we are going to be actually consistent in letting direct democracy have that power. I don’t think most want that. I think most want direct democracy when it coincides with their preferences and judicial activism when direct democracy or representative democracy does not coincide with their preferences. Funny how that works. Granted, but I figured that some things are merely a matter for voters or elected officials, and some things are a matter for the courts no matter how a vote turns out — and I figured that stuff like whether to name a given school after Thomas Jefferson or Harriet Tubman, or whether to declare some day to be National Pickle Day, and so on, were clearly the _former_. Don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2021, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/212 "2021-01-27T20:03:53Z")
> [@WalterBishop](#): > > Now that this measure has passed, I think it’s likely that similar measures will start passing in other districts. It may take some time, 20 or 30 years perhaps, but I wouldn’t be surprised if, at some point in the future, naming something after Lincoln will be considered an act of overt racism. How can this happen? I mean, these things are decided by local boards. The members of those boards are elected. I can see how, clearly, in the city of San Francisco enough board members could be elected that support what I see as overreach in avoiding problematic school names. But I fail to see how that could happen in other communities. Or, put differently, while this action could embolden activists in other liberal communities whose majority endorse the idea that Lincoln should not be the namesake of an elementary school, how can that impact the school board of other locales whose population does not support that viewpoint? I am reasonably confident that if the school board attempted the same in my district they would all be promptly voted out of office. ETA: Although my local district is wise/lucky enough that schools are named for the town, the direction, or the street they are on - not historical figures. There is one that is a local historical figure - I suppose it’s possible someone will look up his racial views at some point and make a fuss. ---
**Author:** ![Mallard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Mallard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mallard)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2021, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/213 "2021-01-27T20:12:24Z")
If a name were akin to “Hitler High” or “Eichmann Elementary” then sure, change the name but “Lincoln”? That’s just silly. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2021, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/214 "2021-01-27T20:13:41Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > And if someplace down South decides to re-name Martin Luther King, Jr., Drive after one of _their_ “local heroes”–like, say, Nathan Bedford Forrest–why, gosh, that’s their prerogative, then? Who are we to judge? Who you name your buildings after tells us a lot more about you than about the building or the person you named it after. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2021, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/215 "2021-01-27T20:19:45Z")
In very liberal Chapel Hill there was opposition to renaming a road to MLK road . The compromise was that the street signs also say in small print “historic airport road” ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2021, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/216 "2021-01-27T20:20:27Z")
> [@Mallard](#): > > If a name were akin to “Hitler High” or “Eichmann Elementary” then sure, change the name but “Lincoln”? That’s just silly. While I agree it’s likely “too far”, I don’t think it’s silly. It’s actually really hard to come up with objective criteria about historical figures. This committee tried, and ended up with criteria that included Lincoln. Without a “historical significance” countervailing criteria it’s not clear how you parse it to give Lincoln a pass but get rid of the more clearly objectionable names. It was probably easier just to jettison all of them and take their lumps. They could have easily put in a “Presidents excluded from consideration” criteria. But they felt that their community wouldn’t support that. While I would disagree with that position in my local district it’s not really my place to tell SF what to name their schools. I did a little research and found out that one of our Elementary schools is named after an old judge and school board president. I have no doubt that considering the era in which he lived he had some beliefs about homosexuality and race that would not meet the standards of today. If the local board decided to push for renaming I don’t think our community would support it but I’d be pretty pissed off if another town felt like they got to have a say. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2021, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/217 "2021-01-27T20:21:29Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > Wait…why is this bad again? I mean, if you suffer from this psychological compulsion to keep names the same, it only emboldens the crazies who can’t handle change. Don’t you see? If you embolden those crazies they might invade Czechoslovakia! ---
**Author:** ![WalterBishop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/aeb1de/32.png) [@WalterBishop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WalterBishop)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2021, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/218 "2021-01-27T20:23:00Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > Oh no! Other schools might be renamed too? How terrible! > > Wait…why is this bad again? I mean, if you suffer from this psychological compulsion to keep names the same, it only emboldens the crazies who can’t handle change. Tearing down monuments of people like Washington and Lincoln, and renaming schools dedicated to them, is problematic because it suggests that people in power are unwilling or unable to think clearly about their own history. This is something which should be discouraged. Thinking clearly about one’s own history necessarily involves judging our ancestors by the standards of their day. Superimposing our own standards on them serves only to downplay their achievements. While Lincoln’s views on race weren’t as egalitarian as ours, they were certainly far superior to those of his contemporaries. The people demanding these changes have shown no desire to take that into account. By removing his name from schools in their district, they’re helping to blur the important distinctions between him and less progressive historical figures. There aren’t many schools named after James Buchanan, or Andrew Johnson, and with good reason. The distinction between them and Lincoln is important. Now, in this district, the distinction is a little less obvious. Does this decision matter in isolation? Not really. It’s one district in one city in one state. But the ahistorical way of thinking which led to this decision should be opposed. If it becomes widespread it will, in my opinion, have a profoundly negative impact on our ability to think about the past. ---
**Author:** ![WalterBishop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/aeb1de/32.png) [@WalterBishop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WalterBishop)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2021, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/219 "2021-01-27T20:26:48Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > How can this happen? I mean, these things are decided by local boards. The members of those boards are elected. I can see how, clearly, in the city of San Francisco enough board members could be elected that support what I see as overreach in avoiding problematic school names. But I fail to see how that could happen in other communities. > > Or, put differently, while this action could embolden activists in other liberal communities whose majority endorse the idea that Lincoln should not be the namesake of an elementary school, how can that impact the school board of other locales whose population does not support that viewpoint? I don’t know, but that doesn’t mean it can’t happen. I imagine if we went back 30 years and asked people from San Francisco if it was offensive to name a school after Lincoln they probably would’ve laughed. So these things can creep up on you. That said, perhaps I should amend my statement to _“naming something after Lincoln will be considered an act of overt racism in those districts”_ ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2021, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/220 "2021-01-27T20:31:31Z")
> [@WalterBishop](#): > > Tearing down monuments of people like Washington and Lincoln, and renaming schools dedicated to them, is problematic because it suggests that people in power are unwilling or unable to think clearly about their own history “Thinking clearly about history” requires hero worship and monuments? 🤔 I would argue exactly the opposite is true. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110.md?page=12)