# San Fran might rename 44 schools **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 15, 2020, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110 "2020-12-15T17:05:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/81 "2020-12-16T17:26:02Z")
> [@WalterBishop](#): > > I would be decidedly unsympathetic. An inability to evaluate a person’s character from within their own historical context is indicative of either profound intellectual disability or profound intellectual laziness. Neither should be catered for. I think a child who brought up such a concern would be displaying very sophisticated perception and analytical skills and I would reward it. We shouldn’t be judging historical figures “from within their own historical context.” That’s moral relativism. There were people in Lincoln’s own time who knew that Lincoln’s position on the matter was immoral. If nothing else, the black people whom he considered less than his own children knew that he was wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Chad\_Sudan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chad_sudan/32/4509_2.png) [@Chad\_Sudan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chad_Sudan)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/82 "2020-12-16T17:28:35Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > the fact that Washington was a slaveholder is excised from our history books Not sure where you got that idea. That fact is in many, many history textbooks. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/83 "2020-12-16T17:30:17Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > People are critiquing slaveholding and racism. But it is interesting that you consider those “fundamentals of western civ”. Asserting that I wrote something that I did not accomplishes what exactly? > [@GIGObuster](#): > > You lost me on that last bit. > > Removing slavery, removing discrimination to the descendants of slaves and other issues are now fundamentals of western civilization. The malicious part was the effort to push fake history particularly from the white supremacy southerners regarding flags and statues. Yeah? However, that’s not what this subversive movement is about. It’s about establishing the premise that violating the standards of today is such an egregious sin that the memory, imagery, name, and ultimately work of those in the past is invalid. The Constitution? Flawed slave document!!! Age of enlightenment ideals on liberty? White supremacy! The whole goal is to erode fundamental concepts of individual freedom and replace it with some form of collective guilt and punishment. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/84 "2020-12-16T17:30:24Z")
Conservatives: “Cadence Owens was right. We shouldn’t idolize Eric Garner or Trayvon Martin as symbols of the black community because they were criminals - Garner was selling cigarettes and Martin tweeted mean things and got in trouble at school.” Also conservatives: “well sure, our Founding Fathers enslaved human beings, beat them nearly to death, and forced them to work their lives away for the benefits of others. But we must consider them as products of their time!” Not to mention that the pedestal that the majority of Americans place the Founding Fathers on is far larger and more ornate than any supposed pedestal black victims of police violence get. But hey, it’s us who are destroying history by looking at who the Fathers actually were rather than a mythological caricature. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/85 "2020-12-16T17:31:18Z")
> [@Chad\_Sudan](#): > > That fact is in many, many school textbooks. There is a widespread movement, led by the right, to remove information from textbooks that reflect badly on the reputation of the United States or its “Founding Fathers.” ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/86 "2020-12-16T17:34:57Z")
> [@Chad\_Sudan](#): > > Not sure where you got that idea. That fact is in many, many history textbooks. Many, but not all. Slavery is glossed over in much of the South. Until 2018 Texas taught that slavery did not cause the Civil War, and whatever the standards are, many teachers still refuse to teach this basic fact. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/87 "2020-12-16T17:35:58Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > The whole goal is to erode fundamental concepts of individual freedom and replace it with some form of collective guilt and punishment. Erm… no it isn’t. The goal is to ensure that everyone has access to individual freedoms, not just people who look like you. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/88 "2020-12-16T17:37:39Z")
No it isn’t. It’s to ensure that different groups have different privileges in order to try to force equality of outcome. So, poisoning the concept of individual freedom and liberty as nothing more than a tool of whiteness and white supremacy is key to that goal. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/89 "2020-12-16T17:38:44Z")
You are incorrect about that, sorry. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/90 "2020-12-16T17:44:43Z")
I’m not sure what you look like but I doubt we are clones. What freedom do I have that you do not? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/91 "2020-12-16T17:47:52Z")
None, because I’m white, white looking, my accent is thin enough that people don’t know I’m foreign unless I tell them, and my name is pretty white too. But for example, when I applied to my current position, I didn’t have to worry about my western name raising any red flags, unlike Black and Asian Americans: > **[Minorities Who 'Whiten' Job Resumes Get More Interviews](https://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/minorities-who-whiten-job-resumes-get-more-interviews)** > > African American and Asian job applicants who mask their race on resumes seem to have better success getting job interviews, according to research by Katherine DeCelles and colleagues. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/92 "2020-12-16T17:50:57Z")
visit Washington’s house, they don’t deny he had slaves. They have a lot about slaves and they have the slave quarters open to visit. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/93 "2020-12-16T17:53:36Z")
That is problematic. But how does removing Abraham Lincoln’s name off a school or defacing a monument fix that? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/94 "2020-12-16T17:56:58Z")
For one, if when we talk about Washington or Lincoln we don’t brush their racism under the rug, but instead tackle it head on, acknowledge it, and then discuss the merits of the good things they did for our country from a historical perspective while also understanding their shortcomings, we just might raise a generation of Americans who understand that Racism is a problem, understand that even if you have no hate in your heart certain assumptions might get baked into your perception by the surrounding culture and that this is still an issue and poisons our society, and therefore be more conscious when making decisions going forwards. That generation of Americans, when they are the ones making hiring decisions, might do better. In fact, I think it’s pretty damn likely they would. While anecdotes are not data, there is only one thought process I can ever fully understand, and that is my own. And my experience was that coming to understand these things definitely had led me to behave in a less racist way. That perception lines up with what I’ve read others say, as well as the limited number of studies on the matter. So I think it is pretty likely. ---
**Author:** ![WalterBishop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/aeb1de/32.png) [@WalterBishop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WalterBishop)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/95 "2020-12-16T17:59:29Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I think a child who brought up such a concern would be displaying very sophisticated perception and analytical skills and I would reward it. What’s sophisticated about it? It’s lazy ‘one-size-fits-all’ thinking which utterly fails to take into account the fact that people are products of their environment. > [@Acsenray](#): > > We shouldn’t be judging historical figures “from within their own historical context.” That’s moral relativism. Not really. Moral relativism, as philosophers use the term, refers to the belief that the morality of an action is relative to the traditions, convictions, or practices of the people performing that action. In other words, a true moral relativist, writing in the 21st Century, would argue that George Washington’s ownership and treatment of slaves was not objectively wrong, because slavery was an accepted part of 18th century society. This is very different from merely judging people like Washington or Lincoln from within their own historical context. There’s a world of difference between saying, as I would, that Washington’s ownership of slaves _was_ immoral, but that the man was merely a product of his time, and saying that Washington’s ownership of slaves was morally neutral and we’ve no right to an opinion on the matter. Similarly, Lincoln’s views on race are, by our standards, undeniably retrograde, but they were far more progressive than pretty much everyone else around him. The fact that he was ahead of the curve on matters of race shows that he was an enlightened thinker, even if his views weren’t as enlightened as ours. > [@Acsenray](#): > > There were people in Lincoln’s own time who knew that Lincoln’s position on the matter was immoral. If nothing else, the black people whom he considered less than his own children knew that he was wrong. Yes, there were people in Lincoln’s time who were even more ahead of the curve than he was. That doesn’t change the fact that he was considerably more progressive than the society in which he was raised. And, unlike other 18th century abolitionists, Lincoln actually ended slavery. So he has that going for him. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/96 "2020-12-16T18:00:11Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > I’m liberal but there are far too many liberals running around complaining about things that very few people care about. And that stuff hurts in elections. For example Biden said "defund the police " hurt the Dems down ballot this year. Probably hurt him too in some close states. I think Obama said it too. Actually there was very little split-ticket voting between Biden and congress. > **[There Wasn’t That Much Split-Ticket Voting In 2020](https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/there-wasnt-that-much-split-ticket-voting-in-2020/)** > > The narrative of the 2020 election is that Joe Biden did pretty well … but down-ballot Democrats, not so much. And while this is true if you look simply at the … > And The Atlantic’s Ronald Brownstein [estimates](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/11/bidens-popular-vote-win-didnt-help-house-democrats/617211/) that Biden carried about 223 House districts — almost exactly the same as the 222-224 seats Democrats will hold in the next Congress.[2](https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/there-wasnt-that-much-split-ticket-voting-in-2020/#fn-2) ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/97 "2020-12-16T18:09:49Z")
I agree. I don’t have any problems with that. I disagree that removing all vestiges of folks from the public sphere and making it taboo to demonstrate an appreciation of historical times and places is the way to do it. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/98 "2020-12-16T18:13:34Z")
> [@WalterBishop](#): > > Similarly, Lincoln’s views on race are, by our standards, undeniably retrograde, but they were far more progressive than pretty much everyone else around him. The fact that he was ahead of the curve on matters of race shows that he was an enlightened thinker, even if his views weren’t as enlightened as ours. I agree with you. But because of this, we shouldn’t look at what Lincoln or the Founding Fathers say and treat it as sacred. When we evaluate a right - say, the second amendment - the fact that the founding fathers said so is no argument at all. We can look at the arguments they made, and see if they still make sense; but the fact that they came to a given conclusion should have no bearing on what we do today. By that same token, if Lincoln’s ideas on race are flawed today, then putting his name on a school has certain implications. In a history class, we can and absolutely should learn about Lincoln and his views, both the good and the bad. And we can and absolutely should debate how his views have aged, and what environment Lincoln was living in and how it shaped his beliefs. No one is advocating erasing Lincoln from history, or no longer making him the hero of historical movies (though if the movie pretends Lincoln did not hold those views that’s a problem too). I wouldn’t even say we shouldn’t have statues of him, because he did keep the union together, and that’s something to honor (as opposed to Confederate monuments, who honor people who absolutely don’t deserve it). But when you put Lincoln’s name on something, especially something where race is already such a big issue like public education, his views on race DO matter. I don’t know whether that means Lincoln’s name shouldn’t be on any schools, but I do know that when people who are affected by this speak up about it, I’m going to listen and think it over, not automatically disparage them and scream about political correctness run amuck. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/99 "2020-12-16T18:15:44Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > For example Biden said "defund the police "… No, he didn’t. > [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > The other two NYC elite high schools (elite in that there’s an entrance exam, competition is stiff, and they’re academically rigorous) are Brooklyn Tech and Bronx Science, so they won’t have any controversy about their names. We could probably dig something bad up on Jonas Bronck if we looked hard enough. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/100 "2020-12-16T18:40:12Z")
Biden on defund the police > **[In leaked audio, Joe Biden says 'defund the police' was used to 'beat the...](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2020/12/10/biden-said-gop-used-defund-police-against-dems-leaked-audio/3887911001/)** > > Some Democrats have pointed to the "defund the police" slogan as responsible for losses in down-ballot races. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110.md?page=6)