# San Fran might rename 44 schools **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 15, 2020, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110 "2020-12-15T17:05:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/121 "2020-12-16T19:20:43Z")
Look it was a different time. Most every German thought it was a good idea to eliminate the “Jewish Problem”. We can’t judge those people by our modern standard of morality. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/122 "2020-12-16T19:21:09Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > It’s not “whitewashing” is is the simple fact that was is considered wrong today, wasnt wrong yesterday. I’m pretty sure the slaves in 1860 considered it wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/123 "2020-12-16T19:21:51Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > It’s not “whitewashing” is is the simple fact that was is considered wrong today, wasnt wrong yesterday. This is why you are being accused of moral relativism. That statement is reprehensible. Instead, try “what is considered wrong today, wasn’t CONSIDERED wrong yesterday”. Slavery was always wrong, even if human societies weren’t enlightened enough to see that. > [@](#): > > We now look down on smokers, but it was a common vice just 50 years ago, and it’s not rare today. Great analogy. Smoking was bad for you even before we knew it was bad for you; it was always a carcinogenic poison. By that same token, racism was wrong, and bad for our society, even when all the white men on top of society considered it right, and didn’t ask anyone else. > [@](#): > > Just about everyone was racist 100 years ago. Holding what was normal & common then against them is “presentism”= judging people of the past by todays standards. And presentism is just as wrong as racism. Really? Presentism is just as wrong as racism? I’ve never known “presentism” to cause a genocide, but maybe it’s just because we haven’t invented time travel yet. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/124 "2020-12-16T19:22:41Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Look it was a different time. Most every German thought it was a good idea to eliminate the “Jewish Problem”. We can’t judge those people by our modern standard of morality. “It seemed like a good idea at the time” is the new “I was just following orders” ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/125 "2020-12-16T19:26:20Z")
In 1860, slavery was widely considered wrong, so slaveholders of that period can have that held against them. But racism was normal. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/126 "2020-12-16T19:29:12Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > > [@DrDeth](#): > > > > It’s not “whitewashing” is is the simple fact that was is considered wrong today, wasnt wrong yesterday. > > I’m pretty sure the slaves in 1860 considered it wrong. … > [@DrDeth](#): > > In 1860, slavery was widely considered wrong, so slaveholders of that period can have that held against them. But racism was normal. Whereas the slaves in 1776 were happy to do their part for the future US of A? Why do you pick one word out of the post (the year 1860) and respond only to that, instead of to what the other poster is actually saying? ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/127 "2020-12-16T19:29:26Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I fail to see how the minimal amount of effort required to rename schools is going to disrupt efforts to fix those other things. Haven’t you heard? Political correctness grinds everything to a halt while half the population finishes clutching their pearls until they’re ground to dust. It’s a pretty labor-intensive process. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/128 "2020-12-16T19:29:58Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > It’s not “whitewashing” is is the simple fact that was is considered wrong today, wasnt wrong yesterday. Uh, yes it was seen as wrong by many back then. The growth of Abolitionism showed that. > **[Abolitionism | Movement, U.S. History, Leaders, & Definition](https://www.britannica.com/topic/abolitionism-European-and-American-social-movement)** > > Abolitionism, movement between about 1783 and 1888 that was chiefly responsible for creating the emotional climate necessary for ending the transatlantic slave trade and chattel slavery. Between the 16th and 19th centuries an estimated total of 12... > Despite its brutality and inhumanity, the slave system aroused little protest until the 18th century, when rationalist thinkers of the [Enlightenment](https://www.britannica.com/event/Enlightenment-European-history) began to criticize it for its violation of the rights of man, and [Quaker](https://www.britannica.com/topic/Quaker)and other evangelical religious groups condemned it for its un-[Christian](https://www.britannica.com/topic/Christianity) qualities. By the late 18th century, [moral](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/moral) disapproval of slavery was widespread, and antislavery reformers won a number of deceptively easy victories during this period. In Britain, [Granville Sharp](https://www.britannica.com/biography/Granville-Sharp) secured a legal decision in 1772 that West Indian planters could not hold slaves in Britain, since slavery was contrary to English law. > > In the [United States](https://www.britannica.com/place/United-States), all of the states north of [Maryland](https://www.britannica.com/place/Maryland-state) abolished slavery between 1777 and 1804. But antislavery [sentiments](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sentiments) had little effect on the centres of slavery themselves: the great plantations of the Deep South, the West Indies, and South America. Turning their attention to these areas, British and American abolitionists began working in the late 18th century to prohibit the importation of African slaves into the British colonies and the United States. Under the leadership of [William Wilberforce](https://www.britannica.com/biography/William-Wilberforce) and [Thomas Clarkson](https://www.britannica.com/biography/Thomas-Clarkson), these forces succeeded in getting the slave trade to the British colonies abolished in 1807. The United States prohibited the importation of slaves that same year, though widespread smuggling continued until about 1862. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/129 "2020-12-16T19:31:30Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > I fail to see how the minimal amount of effort required to rename schools is going to disrupt efforts to fix those other things. > > Haven’t you heard? Political correctness grinds everything to a halt while half the population finishes clutching their pearls until they’re ground to dust. It’s a pretty labor-intensive process This thread is serving as a great demonstration of this process. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/130 "2020-12-16T19:32:12Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > This thread is serving as a great demonstration of this process. Sad but true. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/131 "2020-12-16T19:34:53Z")
Because that _is_ what they were saying. In 1776 slavery wasnt widely considered as wrong, in fact the few Abolitionists were considered bonkers. Sure, the slaves weren’t happy but that wasnt a common concern. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/132 "2020-12-16T19:35:46Z")
What bearing does that have on whether slavery is right or wrong, or was right or wrong in the past? Unless, of course, you ARE a moral relativist, despite your earlier protests? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/133 "2020-12-16T19:37:41Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Uh, yes it was seen as wrong by many back then. Indeed, as i said _Slavery_ was widely considered wrong 100 years ago by many. But _racism_ wasnt. “it” in the quote you cite from me, referred to racism, not slavery. So, you cites just prove that i said- 100 years ago, racism was the norm, but slavery was considered wrong by most people. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/134 "2020-12-16T19:38:15Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Sure, the slaves weren’t happy but that wasnt a common concern. When you can show that slave owners would have been happy to become slaves then you’ll have a point. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/135 "2020-12-16T19:39:13Z")
No, as i said “presentism” is judging the people of the past by the standards of today. It is perfectly Ok to judge the people of the past by the standards _then._ ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/136 "2020-12-16T19:41:47Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > I’ll second this. Just seeing this thread title makes me cringe. Me, too. Also, is Galileo on the list? I lived in San Francisco one summer decades ago, and I was young enough to pass for high school age. So, I got a high school bus pass, and the people I lived with said, if challenged, to say I went to Galileo (the school I would have gone to based on my address). All I knew about it at the time is that OJ Simpson went there. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/137 "2020-12-16T19:50:39Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No, as i said “presentism” is judging the people of the past by the standards of today. > > It is perfectly Ok to judge the people of the past by the standards _then._ That… is the definition of moral relativism. Which means we have nothing left to debate, because by your logic, if Hitler conquered the wrong and created his Third Reich, it would be wrong to judge its citizens for their genocide and mass murder. Because that’s the prevailing attitude of their time. So yeah, I have nothing to debate with someone who subscribes to moral relativism. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/138 "2020-12-16T19:50:57Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Indeed, as i said _Slavery_ was widely considered wrong 100 years ago by many. > > But _racism_ wasnt. “it” in the quote you cite from me, referred to racism, not slavery. > > So, you cites just prove that i said- 100 years ago, racism was the norm, but slavery was considered wrong by most people. I would say that would be on other places, in the USA slavery came to be considered a condition applicable only to black people some other minorities. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/139 "2020-12-16T19:54:35Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No, as i said “presentism” is judging the people of the past by the standards of today. The school names are in use today, so judging the appropriateness of the names should use today’s standards, no? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/140 "2020-12-16T19:55:29Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > The school names are in use today, so judging the appropriateness of the names should use today’s standards, no? . Obviously this is what we are discussing. You’d almost think we are putting Lincoln on trial here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110.md?page=8)