# San Fran might rename 44 schools **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 15, 2020, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110 "2020-12-15T17:05:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/141 "2020-12-16T19:59:28Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I would say that would be on other places, in the USA slavery came to be considered a condition applicable only to black people some other minorities. What I meant to say in that last line: ‘only to black people **and** some other minorities.’ ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/142 "2020-12-16T20:04:08Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > It is perfectly Ok to judge the people of the past by the standards _then._ You’re ignoring the opinions of a great many people of the past when you say that slavery wasn’t considered wrong in 1776. Not just the “bonkers” abolitionists. Acting like the slaves’ concerns didn’t matter because all the white folk thought slavery was a grand idea, is kind of problematic. You’re excluding slaves from the group people who have the right to consider what is right and wrong in their day. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/143 "2020-12-16T20:05:08Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Acting like the slaves’ concerns didn’t matter because all the white folk thought slavery was a grand idea, is kind of problematic. You’re excluding slaves from the group people who have the right to consider what is right and wrong in their day. Just like our founding fathers! ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/144 "2020-12-16T20:16:28Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Hell, even numbers are probably triggering to someone somewhere who can find some negative association with a particular number. Yep! > **[Buying a house: Why the numbers 4, 13 and 8 matter](https://www.thestar.com/business/personal-finance/buying-a-house-why-the-numbers-4-13-and-8-matter/article_ba9c1798-e992-5e46-800e-b9ad4d0e33b6.html)** > > Numbers mean different things in some cultures. The wrong one can lower a home’s value by up to $35,000. If the 44 SF schools were numbered, you wouldn’t get many Asians attending the 44th one! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/145 "2020-12-16T21:42:19Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No, as i said “presentism” is judging the people of the past by the standards of today. > > It is perfectly Ok to judge the people of the past by the standards _then._ That only applies when we’re judging _people_. Thomas Jefferson can’t be judged as an extraordinary racist in the sense that Richard Spencer is an extraordinary racist. Spencer has the benefit of modern thought and philosophy, as well as understanding sensibilities of modern society. He rejected it and doubled down. Jefferson didn’t really have that knowledge available in his time period, at least not as abundantly as we do. But regardless, as a moral value, racism is racism no matter when it happened. We can remember Jefferson for his achievements in the proper place (libraries, universities, and museums). But when our current consensus recognizes that he did some odious things by modern standards, we’re under no obligation whatsoever to keep celebrating and glorifying him with public monuments, and we shouldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Chad\_Sudan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chad_sudan/32/4509_2.png) [@Chad\_Sudan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chad_Sudan)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/146 "2020-12-16T22:38:06Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > we’re under no obligation whatsoever to keep celebrating and glorifying him with public monuments, and we shouldn’t. OK, so what should be done with the Jefferson Memorial and other monuments in Washing— I mean, the District of Columbia? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/147 "2020-12-16T22:52:46Z")
> [@Chad\_Sudan](#): > > OK, so what should be done with the Jefferson Memorial and other monuments in Washing— I mean, the District of Columbia? Maybe we will get rid of them, or re-dedicate them to other people, or to something other than individual people. Maybe we will leave them as is. Who knows? It doesn’t have to be decided right away. It doesn’t even have to be decided tomorrow. We’ll see. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/148 "2020-12-16T22:54:18Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > > [@Acsenray](#): > > > > Racism isn’t a foible. > > You are right-Racism _isn’t_ a foible- today. But a hundred & fifty years ago, it was. No, it wasn’t. And even if it had been, it doesn’t matter. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/149 "2020-12-16T22:56:28Z")
> [@Chad\_Sudan](#): > > OK, so what should be done with the Jefferson Memorial and other monuments in Washing— I mean, the District of Columbia? Historical monuments to major American presidents in US capitol? As you know, that’s an appropriate and historically consistent context, so I’d judge that those can stay. In the neighborhood where I grew up, naming the elementary school after those guys is about the least appropriate context I can think of. We have plenty of local heroes who are more deserving to have things named after them. Context matters. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/150 "2020-12-16T22:57:39Z")
> [@WalterBishop](#): > > What’s sophisticated about it? It’s lazy ‘one-size-fits-all’ thinking This is gibberish. > [@](#): > > which utterly fails to take into account the fact that people are products of their environment. And what’s important right now is the environment surrounding a child being educated—a child being educated _today_ shouldn’t have to face entering a school named after someone who considered em a second-class person. That child and es guardians should have the agency to petition a name change. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/151 "2020-12-16T23:03:45Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Historical monuments to major American presidents in US capitol? As you know, that’s an appropriate and historically consistent context, so I’d judge that those can stay. It’s almost like you’re not actually trying to “cancel” George Washington, but instead are calling attention to the implications of implicitly endorsing his views at a school for children of all races. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/152 "2020-12-16T23:06:10Z")
Look I know it sounds bad today that George Washington murdered and ate the bodies of twelve soldiers at Valley Forge but it was a different time. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/153 "2020-12-16T23:10:43Z")
That’s the kind of perseverance you want in a leader. You know how hard it is to eat frozen human flesh with wooden teeth? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/154 "2020-12-16T23:10:51Z")
That’s probably the last thing I’d blame him for, especially since I’m sure enough troops were dying anyways that any cannibalism that happened at Valley Forge wouldn’t have required murder. Of course, getting into that situation in the first place busts the myth of Washington, the Invincible General, but that’s a story for another thread. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/155 "2020-12-16T23:18:57Z")
Oh I see, there was a horror movie. I thought there were real rumors of cannibalism at Valley Forge. Which, I mean, enough people died of starvation that I wouldn’t blame them (or be very surprised) if there had been at least a couple incidents. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/156 "2020-12-16T23:39:29Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > because by your logic, if Hitler conquered the wrong and created his Third Reich, That is indeed not my logic at all, since the entire free world and the neutrals all condemn such atrocities, it was wrong then, and wrong now. ---
**Author:** ![WalterBishop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/aeb1de/32.png) [@WalterBishop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WalterBishop)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/157 "2020-12-16T23:40:34Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > This is gibberish How is it gibberish? I don’t think my meaning could be plainer. Also, speaking of gibberish, you misspelled the word ‘his’. > [@Acsenray](#): > > And what’s important right now is the environment surrounding a child being educated—a child being educated _today_ shouldn’t have to face entering a school named after someone who considered em a second-class person. You say this like it’s some great psychic hardship. It isn’t. Especially since that same person fought a war to ensure their emancipation. I _loathe_ the word ‘nothingburger’, but I can’t think of anything else that fits. > [@Acsenray](#): > > That child and es guardians should have the agency to petition a name change. I never said they shouldn’t have the _agency_ to petition a name change. I just said, essentially, that the choice to do so indicates a distinct lack of historical perspective. ---
**Author:** ![WalterBishop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/aeb1de/32.png) [@WalterBishop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WalterBishop)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/158 "2020-12-16T23:55:35Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I agree with you. But because of this, we shouldn’t look at what Lincoln or the Founding Fathers say and treat it as sacred. When we evaluate a right - say, the second amendment - the fact that the founding fathers said so is no argument at all. We can look at the arguments they made, and see if they still make sense; but the fact that they came to a given conclusion should have no bearing on what we do today. I agree with this. The Founders were very much ahead of their time in some respects, but very much products of their time in others. I agree it’s unreasonable to treat their writings as gospel, especially as they pertain to matters they couldn’t have known about. > [@Babale](#): > > By that same token, if Lincoln’s ideas on race are flawed today, then putting his name on a school has certain implications. I _partially_ agree with this. _Some_ of his ideas on race were flawed, but some were perfectly morally correct, and it’s for _those_ ideas that he took the country to war. I think it’s a mistake to view the dedication of a school to his memory as an endorsement of _everything_ the man believed. The way I see it, his decision to go to war over slavery was, _in his time_, an act of tremendous moral courage, and it’s that courage for which he’s commemorated. Furthermore, in that specific sense, I think he’s an excellent role model for children. > [@Babale](#): > > In a history class, we can and absolutely should learn about Lincoln and his views, both the good and the bad. And we can and absolutely should debate how his views have aged, and what environment Lincoln was living in and how it shaped his beliefs. Agreed. > [@Babale](#): > > But when you put Lincoln’s name on something, especially something where race is already such a big issue like public education, his views on race DO matter. I don’t know whether that means Lincoln’s name shouldn’t be on any schools, but I do know that when people who are affected by this speak up about it, I’m going to listen and think it over, not automatically disparage them and scream about political correctness run amuck. I fully agree these people should be given a fair hearing, but I also think that it should work both ways. So far, I’ve not seen evidence that the people pushing for these name changes have given due consideration to either Lincoln’s accomplishments or the strength of character it took to achieve them. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/159 "2020-12-16T23:57:54Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > since the entire free world and the neutrals all condemn such atrocities, it was wrong then, and wrong now. Right, but if Hitler won and installed puppet fascist states everywhere Wolfenstein style, you’d be a-OK with it, because no one (who matters) is criticizing things? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2020, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110/160 "2020-12-17T00:00:25Z")
No, it was still wrong then. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-fran-might-rename-44-schools/928110.md?page=9)