# San Francisco allows lesbian couple to marry. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [February 12, 2004, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-allows-lesbian-couple-to-marry/228922 "2004-02-12T21:43:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2004, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-allows-lesbian-couple-to-marry/228922/41 "2004-02-16T15:23:45Z")
Oh, and, to nitpick, France doesn’t recognize same-sex marriage. France offers couples, same- and mixed-sex, [PACS](http://www.datalounge.com/datalounge/news/record.html?record=4754&continuebutton=Not+Now), or “civil solidarity pacts,” which offer some but not all of the rights and benefits of marriage. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2004, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-allows-lesbian-couple-to-marry/228922/42 "2004-02-16T16:54:01Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > The total of married couples is now [over 1000](http://www.365gay.com/newscon04/02/021604sfUpdt.htm). The clerk handed out numbers to those who chose to wait in line overnight and she is keeping the office open all day today to get as many couples married before tomorrow’s court hearing as possible. I have visions of thousands of married couples converging on the courtroom… > > Meanwhile in Massachusetts, “law and order” governor Mitt Romney is reportedly planning to [defy the order of the Supreme Judicial Court](http://www.365gay.com/newscon04/02/021604massGov.htm) and refuse to allow marriage licenses to be issued to same-sex couples. No word yet as to whether he plans to block access to the clerk’s office a la George Wallace. Given that the governor is defying his own state’s court rather than the SCOTUS, who the hell will step in the fix _this_ one? ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2004, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-allows-lesbian-couple-to-marry/228922/43 "2004-02-16T18:32:49Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > Oh, and, to nitpick, France doesn’t recognize same-sex marriage. France offers couples, same- and mixed-sex, [PACS](http://www.datalounge.com/datalounge/news/record.html?record=4754&continuebutton=Not+Now), or “civil solidarity pacts,” which offer some but not all of the rights and benefits of marriage. So how would that work: You don’t exist but you can have partial rights? To offer civil ceremonies and a legal status is to inherently recognise the marriage exists - to not (yet) afford gay marriages full rights means it’s called an interinm step. But you can’t afford something partial rights and not recognise its existence. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2004, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-allows-lesbian-couple-to-marry/228922/44 "2004-02-16T20:30:59Z")
OK, well, try this. Go ask the [French consulate in San Francisco](http://www.consulfrance-sanfrancisco.org/) if same-sex marriage is legal in France and if a civil solidarity pact is the same as marriage. How it works is that France decided to extend some, but not all, of the rights and privileges previously reserved to married couples to unmarried couples, both mixed-sex and same-sex. France could have legalized same-sex marriage, as The Netherlands and Denmark did, but they did not. [Here](http://www.datalounge.com/datalounge/issues/index.html?storyline=271) is a brief history of PACS. [Here](http://www.datalounge.com/datalounge/news/record.html?record=4843) is an article about a constitutional challenge to PACS which failed. [Here](http://www.datalounge.com/datalounge/news/record.html?record=5069) is an article about the initial wave of PACS registrations. Your friends may consider themselves married. I do not begrudge them that in the slightest. But from a factual, legal standpoint they are not married under the laws of France because France does not have legal same-sex marriage. France would not and does not recognize them as a married couple. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2004, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-allows-lesbian-couple-to-marry/228922/45 "2004-02-16T20:48:27Z")
> [@dutchboy208](#): > > Given that the governor is defying his own state’s court rather than the SCOTUS, who the hell will step in the fix _this_ one? Considering that at least one city, [Cambridge](http://www.dailyfreepress.com/news/2003/11/25/News/Cambridge.Oks.Gay.Marriage-567763.shtml), is champing at the bit to issue licenses _now_, my feeling is that even if Romney issues an executive order not to issue licenses that one or more issuing entities will just ignore him. He could also be looking at a contempt citation which could have the delicious effect of getting him clapped in irons by bailiffs and carted off to jail until he rescinds the order. ---
**Author:** ![Sengkelat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@Sengkelat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sengkelat)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2004, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-allows-lesbian-couple-to-marry/228922/46 "2004-02-17T01:56:35Z")
Nothing much to say, just adding my voice to the general agreement that this is very cool. Equality is only equality if it’s for everyone. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2004, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-allows-lesbian-couple-to-marry/228922/47 "2004-02-17T03:27:10Z")
Make your mind up what it is you want to “Nitpick”. You started with saying France doesn’t _recognise_ gay marriages, to which I said you’re wrong. And now you’ve shifted to it’s not “legal” in France. If you want to nitpick, don’t keep moving the goalposts. I understand the law in France, my friends understand the law in France. Their marriage is _recognised_ – the word you originally nitpicked. Sure, it doesn’t have equal status because it’s an interim position, they’re adopted an equality one-step-at-a-time policy. But that wasn’t your point, and you’re telling me what I’ve already known for over two years. Thanks, but bye. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2004, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-allows-lesbian-couple-to-marry/228922/48 "2004-02-17T03:28:50Z")
The above post to **Otto**. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2004, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-allows-lesbian-couple-to-marry/228922/49 "2004-02-17T03:37:22Z")
> [@iampunha](#): > > How Brown was able to coax Americans to vote for him instead of the Topeka Board of Education is beyond me… I was going to be all snarky and point out that Linda Brown wasn’t a him. But I suppose it was technically her father named on the suit. And then I wrote this anyway. Carry on. And good on SF and those couples! ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2004, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-allows-lesbian-couple-to-marry/228922/50 "2004-02-17T13:20:30Z")
> [@London\_Calling](#): > > Make your mind up what it is you want to “Nitpick”. You started with saying France doesn’t _recognise_ gay marriages, to which I said you’re wrong. And now you’ve shifted to it’s not “legal” in France. If you want to nitpick, don’t keep moving the goalposts. Oh for _fuck’s sake_. **Same-sex marriage is not a legally recognized construct in the nation of France**. Is that better? Does that cover all your silly little bases? I don’t know why you have this particular wild hair up your ass and why you can’t admit that you’re wrong, but you’re just flat-out wrong in your assertion that France has legally recognized same-sex marriage. It hasn’t, and I’ve posted the evidence for it. Why don’t you try posting a single source other than your anecdotal story about your friends that states otherwise? Civil solidarity pacts are not marriages. Couples joined in PACS are not married under French law. France “recognizes” your friends as a couple, but does not “recognize” them as a _married_ couple. Do you get it now or do you still wish to play this stupid fucking little game? ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2004, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-allows-lesbian-couple-to-marry/228922/51 "2004-02-17T15:39:38Z")
One of two [hearings](http://www.365gay.com/newscon04/02/021704sfCourt.htm) on the legality of SF’s move is set to begin at 11:00 PST. Whatever the decision, the losing side is sure to appeal to the California supreme court. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2004, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-allows-lesbian-couple-to-marry/228922/52 "2004-02-17T20:56:10Z")
In breaking news, one of [two](http://www.365gay.com/newscon04/02/021704sfCourtAM.htm) hearings has been postponed. The plaintiffs amended their filing and didn’t give San Francisco the required 24 hours to review it. The judge rescheduled it to Friday, but may cancel it alltogether depending on what happens at the other hearing also scheduled for today. And the anti-family forces amassed against the thousands of married couples want the mayor of San Francisco [arrested](http://www.365gay.com/newscon04/02/021704newsomJail.htm). ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2004, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-allows-lesbian-couple-to-marry/228922/53 "2004-02-17T20:57:04Z")
Update: Any hearings which would put a stop to this have been [delayed until Friday](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=2&u=/ap/20040217/ap_on_re_us/gay_marriage_99). On a personal note, my cousin and her girlfriend/wife/life partner, who had a meaningful-but-not-in-a-legal-sense wedding last summer, showed up bright and early on Sunday morning hoping for the best, but the line was already way too long. They nonetheless spent a festive day cheering for other couples as they emerged, and it sounded like a fantastic experience. (I have a quite moving email from them describing the scene which I’ve asked permission to reproduce here, sans names…) Anyone have a sense of what the national reaction to this is? ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2004, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-allows-lesbian-couple-to-marry/228922/54 "2004-02-18T08:25:59Z")
Here’s my cousin’s email. (It’s actually from my cousin’s partner Ellen). (Oh, and lest you think that there’s some sort of chicanery going on with the wheelchair and the handicapped spaces, Ellen has chronic Fiber Myalgia or some such condition, and isn’t capable of standing in line for very long…) > [@](#): > > Meg and I went to Monterey for our planned Valentine’s Day romantic weekend, and came back late Saturday night to learn of the marriage revolution going on here. We decided to try our luck on Sunday, since Meg had to work Monday and the court cases were going to happen on Tuesday and presumably stop the whole thing. So we got up early the next day (!), dressed in our wedding finery, and drove into the city. We had heard of people standing in line for many hours, so we borrowed a wheelchair from a friend so that Meg could push me in the line. We found City Hall with no problem, and thought it must be destiny, since its enormous ornate gold dome perfectly matched Meg’s gold tuxedo jacket . We pulled into a convenient disabled spot right in front of City Hall, which seemed like another sign. But almost immediately, before we could even disentangle ourselves from seatbelts and bow ties and join the long line of men and women outside the courthouse, a volunteer approached us to say that there would be no more weddings that day. On the previous day, Valentine’s Day, they had given out numbers to more than 300 couples who had been turned away, and those couples had first priority on Sunday. As we milled around, periodically newly married couples would drive by, holding up their marriage certificates and honking, and we would cheer in return. Some of them have signs saying things like “together for 17 years” and “thank you Mayor Newsom.” On the other side of the courthouse, the newly married couples, often with their children, would emerge from the enormous golden doors and descend the steps, which supporters had strewn with long-stemmed red roses and birdseed. A large crowd of friends and supporters waited at the bottom, and we joined them for a while cheering and clapping each time a couple came out. Across the street, a small handful of protesters stood holding signs, but they were completely outnumbered and outclassed by the hundreds of joyful, celebrating gay and straight people on our side. A long line of determined couples were still waiting, despite frequent announcements by the Mayor’s office that there would be no more ceremonies that day, and that no one should plan to spend the night. Many people had brought lawn chairs and coolers, and were clearly prepared to stay as long as they needed to to make it in. Although it was somewhat frustrating that we had gotten so dressed up and excited, and couldn’t get married, overall there was a tremendous feeling of festivity, pride, and love. Since we were dressed in our wedding outfits, many people approached us to say congratulations, give us flowers, and take our pictures. Even when it started raining and turned cold, there was no decrease in the number of supporters or determined couples waiting in line. Everyone just raised umbrellas and continued cheering and clapping. Eventually we left since Meg had to go to work. As we drove back, we talked about how it felt to be part of such a historical moment, and that it reminded us of stories we heard about sit-ins at segregated lunch counters and other crucial moments when a group of people simply stopped following the rules and did the right thing. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2004, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-allows-lesbian-couple-to-marry/228922/55 "2004-02-18T08:35:53Z")
Let’s also hear it for the City Hall clerks, who not only worked all through the weekend, but did so _without wage._ ---
**Author:** ![whiterabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/cab0a1/32.png) [@whiterabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whiterabbit)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2004, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-allows-lesbian-couple-to-marry/228922/56 "2004-02-18T13:51:40Z")
I wish I could be there. This is really cool. I WILL be in San Francisco in July, but all sorts of legal stuff could go down before then. We shall see. Not that I’m going there to get married, though I’d love to do it there just because of this, straight as I am. There’s no candidate for THAT right now, though. I’ve always had a fondness for the city, and this only makes that feeling grow. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2004, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-allows-lesbian-couple-to-marry/228922/57 "2004-02-18T17:29:33Z")
I was beginning to wonder if anyone else remembered [Clela Rorex](http://www.advocate.com/new_news.asp?ID=11335&sd=02/18/04). So **Max** now that everything’s been pushed back to Friday is your cousin going to get merried this week? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2004, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-allows-lesbian-couple-to-marry/228922/58 "2004-02-18T19:22:22Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > Let’s also hear it for the City Hall clerks, who not only worked all through the weekend, but did so _without wage._ Wow. **Otto** , that Clela Rorex story was fascinating. I wasn’t aware that this had happened before; here’s hoping things turn out better this time. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2004, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-allows-lesbian-couple-to-marry/228922/59 "2004-02-18T21:44:20Z")
> [@dutchboy208](#): > > **Otto** , that Clela Rorex story was fascinating. I wasn’t aware that this had happened before; here’s hoping things turn out better this time. I did a paper on SSM a few years back and included information about her. When the SF story and all the “first in the nation” stories started I was like “nuh uh!” The first time I read about her and especially her answer to the man who wanted to marry his horse I declared her a minor personal hero. I’m glad she was remembered and I hope one day she’ll get the recognition she deserves. And I love her name. I don’t know why I assumed she was dead… ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2004, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-allows-lesbian-couple-to-marry/228922/60 "2004-02-19T22:04:21Z")
\ The State of California Department of Health and Human Services has announced it will not record any marriage licenses issued to same-sex couples, because the license form was altered and state law requires the license forms be uniform. The words “bride” and “groom” were replaced with “applicant one” and “applicant two.” The weddings will continue for at least six more weeks under a ruling issued Tuesday. I can’t find anything that discusses the ruling specifically so if anyone has more information I’d appreciate your posting it. George and Laura Bush continue to be “disturbed” and “shocked” respectively. The mayor has suggested that the Bushes meet with Del Martin and Phyllis Lyon to explain personally why their being legally married after 51 years together is harmful to the nation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-allows-lesbian-couple-to-marry/228922.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-allows-lesbian-couple-to-marry/228922.md?page=4)