# San Francisco cel phone shutdown: safety issue, or hint of Orwell? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 13, 2011, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-cel-phone-shutdown-safety-issue-or-hint-of-orwell/592627 "2011-08-13T23:39:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2011, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-cel-phone-shutdown-safety-issue-or-hint-of-orwell/592627/1 "2011-08-13T23:39:25Z")
[Yesterday, the Bay Area Rapid Transit shut down a number of cel phone repeaters in their train stations](http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_TRANSIT_PHONE_JAMMING?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-08-13-18-19-29), ostensibly to prevent people from using their phones and social media sites to coordinate a demonstration over a recent shooting by BART police. This was described as a public safety measure by the officials who ordered it, but many see it as an intrusion and possible infringement of people’s rights. [ > [@](#): > > “I’m just shocked that they didn’t think about the implications of this. We really don’t have the right to be this type of censor,” said Lynette Sweet, who serves on BART’s board of directors. “In my opinion, we’ve let the actions of a few people affect everybody. And that’s not fair.” ]([http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US\_TRANSIT\_PHONE\_JAMMING?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-08-13-18-19-29](http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_TRANSIT_PHONE_JAMMING?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-08-13-18-19-29)) Many people are looking at this in light of the recent riots in the UK and how they were handled (and how similar events might be handled in the future). [ > [@](#): > > Similar questions of censorship have arisen in recent days as Britain’s government put the idea of curbing social media services on the table in response to several nights of widespread looting and violence in London and other English cities. Police claim that young criminals used Twitter and Blackberry instant messages to coordinate looting sprees in riots. > > Prime Minister David Cameron said that the government, spy agencies and the communications industry are looking at whether there should be limits on the use of social media sites like Twitter and Facebook or services like BlackBerry Messenger to spread disorder. The suggestions have met with outrage - with some critics comparing Cameron to the despots ousted during the Arab Spring. ]([http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US\_TRANSIT\_PHONE\_JAMMING?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-08-13-18-19-29](http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_TRANSIT_PHONE_JAMMING?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-08-13-18-19-29)) While I doubt that PM Cameron rises to quite that level of despotic ambition, I have to wonder if there are limits on how much technology can be shut down, or how often, before it seems to violate people’s rights. The linked article is fairly long (for a news article, anyway) and details both sides of the question. [ > [@BART Deputy Police Chief Benson Fairow](#): > > It wasn’t a decision made lightly. This wasn’t about free speech. It was about safety. > [@Loyola Law School Professor Aaron Caplan](#): > > We can arrest and prosecute people for the crimes they commit. You are not allowed to shut down people’s cellphones and prevent them from speaking because you think they might commit a crime in the future. ]([http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US\_TRANSIT\_PHONE\_JAMMING?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-08-13-18-19-29](http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_TRANSIT_PHONE_JAMMING?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-08-13-18-19-29)) On the one hand, I understand that public safety could have been an issue. On the other hand, I don’t know that a part of the planned demonstration was to bring weapons and assault people, so I’m not sure what actual public safety issues there really were. I don’t think I’d have a problem seeing that a flash mob that was directed to bring Molotov cocktails would warrant an effort to suppress the medium the message was being passed through, but what about a demonstration that is planned without violence? Is the mere fact that some violence could occur when people demonstrate enough to warrant this type of shutdown in _any_ planned protest? I thought I’d throw this out to my fellow Dopers to read through and ponder. I’m interested in legal opinions as well as ordinary folks’ thoughts on this specifically and on the action in general. Did BART go too far? Or did they do the minimum necessary to disrupt what was a potential safety hazard? Did they really disrupt anything at all? Is this something that should be done all the time? Should it be done at all? At who’s discretion? Under what criteria? ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2011, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-cel-phone-shutdown-safety-issue-or-hint-of-orwell/592627/2 "2011-08-13T23:41:54Z")
Echoes of Mubarak, eh? “Safety” seems to be a dodge to hide behind. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2011, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-cel-phone-shutdown-safety-issue-or-hint-of-orwell/592627/3 "2011-08-13T23:44:23Z")
I didn’t read the article (just the parts you quoted), but ISTM that all they did was shut down repeaters. The things that make it easier to get a signal within the station. Is that correct? If that’s the case, could people have simply walked outside and continued receiving facebook updates/texts/tweets? When I first heard about this, I heard that they were blocking the signal. ISTM, that there’s a big difference between blocking the signal and turning off repeaters that they installed to make life easier for passengers waiting to board. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2011, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-cel-phone-shutdown-safety-issue-or-hint-of-orwell/592627/4 "2011-08-13T23:48:40Z")
Are there pay phones in the stations? If so, I can picture that being used to counter “prevention of expression” issues. I can even picture the stations installing more pay phones to justify future repeater-shutdowns. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2011, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-cel-phone-shutdown-safety-issue-or-hint-of-orwell/592627/5 "2011-08-13T23:49:04Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > When I first heard about this, I heard that they were blocking the signal. ISTM, that there’s a big difference between blocking the signal and turning off repeaters that they installed to make life easier for passengers waiting to board. Blocking the signal would violate FCC regs. They just turned it off. > [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > Are there pay phones in the stations? Are there pay phones anywhere in 2011? ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2011, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-cel-phone-shutdown-safety-issue-or-hint-of-orwell/592627/6 "2011-08-13T23:51:51Z")
NETA, I’m not sure how I feel yet, but if all they did was shut down repeaters, I think before any discussions commence (not here, but in the media) people need to be very clear on terminology. Specifically, that shutting down repeaters in the station is not the same as cutting off your cell phone service or blocking access to the internet. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2011, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-cel-phone-shutdown-safety-issue-or-hint-of-orwell/592627/7 "2011-08-13T23:57:32Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Are there pay phones anywhere in 2011? Umm… yes? And in a concentrated area like a train station, it should be relatively easy to install or re-install and maintain a bank of pay phones. To the more general issue (and in light of recent London unrest), I can picture it becoming legally acceptable to electronically mass-monitor text and twitter messages for terms relating to flash rioting, to alert human law enforcement when there’s a spike in such traffic with a time and location attached. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2011, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-cel-phone-shutdown-safety-issue-or-hint-of-orwell/592627/8 "2011-08-14T00:00:19Z")
From the article I linked to in the OP: > [@](#): > > The question resonated Saturday in San Francisco and beyond as details emerged of Bay Area Rapid Transit officials’ **decision to cut off underground cellphone service** for a few hours at several stations Thursday. [ > [@](#): > > BART officials acknowledged Friday afternoon that **they had switched off the transit system’s underground cell phone network** , which runs from Balboa Park Station through the Transbay Tube, from 4 to 7 p.m. Thursday to prevent protesters from coordinating plans to stop trains. ]([http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/08/12/BAEU1KMS8U.DTL](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/08/12/BAEU1KMS8U.DTL)) (bolding mine) I have no idea if there actually were plans to “stop trains”. I’m not sure how protesters were supposedly going to accomplish that, either. What is clear is that, by their own admission, BART officials turned off the network that helps provide cel phone service. I don’t even know if they actually own the network or if it’s just on BART property. If anyone has more details, please provide them with links to the source stories. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2011, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-cel-phone-shutdown-safety-issue-or-hint-of-orwell/592627/9 "2011-08-14T00:12:58Z")
I just noticed that in the AP article, if you look in the title bar it uses the phrase “phone jamming” which, again, wasn’t the case. As I said before, I’m not sure where I stand on this, but I wish they would get everything straight. Cell service wasn’t blocked\* or jammed, they just turned off repeaters. \*One could call it blocked, but only due to the geography of where the cell phones are, no one actively blocked them. It’s not that these people were in Faraday cages. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2011, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-cel-phone-shutdown-safety-issue-or-hint-of-orwell/592627/10 "2011-08-14T00:38:14Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I don’t even know if they actually own the network or if it’s just on BART property. If anyone has more details, please provide them with links to the source stories. I doubt they own the network, the actual cell network, that would be sprint, verizon,at&t etc. What the repeaters do is take the signal from the providers and amplify it, so that it can be used underground, or in metal trains or geograhic areas that notice loss of signal. Turn off the repeaters and you kill the signal until such time as the subway patron returns to the surface. Declan ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2011, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-cel-phone-shutdown-safety-issue-or-hint-of-orwell/592627/11 "2011-08-14T00:55:57Z")
The repeaters are a service that BART supplies within it’s domain. They didn’t shut them down willy nilly, there was already a [group of protesters stopping the trains](http://www.ktvu.com/video/28517481/index.html). If I was a passenger who was held up by these howler monkeys after a hard day in the salt mines I would certainly have gotten all stabby over their antics. Protesting is a hallmark of freedom but if you use it to interfere with other people’s lives then it will eventually get ugly. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2011, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-cel-phone-shutdown-safety-issue-or-hint-of-orwell/592627/12 "2011-08-14T02:28:56Z")
I think the distinction between blocking cellphone signals and not boosting them makes this specific action perfectly okay. As Joey P says, if people could just walk outside the stations and make their calls, it’s kind of hard to see this as the fist of Big Brother crushing le people in its grasp. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2011, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-cel-phone-shutdown-safety-issue-or-hint-of-orwell/592627/13 "2011-08-14T02:37:06Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I think the distinction between blocking cellphone signals and not boosting them makes this specific action perfectly okay. As Joey P says, if people could just walk outside the stations and make their calls, it’s kind of hard to see this as the fist of Big Brother crushing le people in its grasp. Snowboarder quoted part of an article suggesting that some of these repeaters were in a tube (I assume that means subway where people couldn’t get out). But again, this isn’t blocking the service, it’s simply disabling a system that BART chose to put in place as a convenience to it’s customers. It would be different if, say, the tube already had a great signal and they shielded it. I can’t imagine it would be unconstitutional for them to just rip the repeaters out altogether if they chose to. ---
**Author:** ![Yodalicious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yodalicious/32/8195_2.png) [@Yodalicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yodalicious)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2011, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-cel-phone-shutdown-safety-issue-or-hint-of-orwell/592627/14 "2011-08-15T17:21:17Z")
I think there’s a debate here… You’ve probably heard about BART’s decision to black cells phones service in it’s stations to stop a protest, and the response by the hacker group Anonymous. If Anonymous is trying to get sympathy for their cause, I’m not sure its working. Why release the contact information of innocent train riders, why not try and get the information of the people in charge? I feel the same way about the Sony hacking. Supposedly it was done because Sony sued a guy who wanted to release “jailbreak” info for the PS3. At first I thought, “Yeah! Stick it to the man!” But then I questioned why my information was being released along with millions of others. What’d I ever do to Anonymous? Does Anonymous even care how their actions may affect regular folk? Oh, if you’re part of Anonymous, please don’t hack SDMB because of this post. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2011, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-cel-phone-shutdown-safety-issue-or-hint-of-orwell/592627/15 "2011-08-15T17:26:58Z")
Well, Bart didn’t really block cell phone service as such, so (no offense) are you sure you’ve written an accurate description of what Anonymous is doing? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Bredin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@John\_Bredin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Bredin)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2011, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-cel-phone-shutdown-safety-issue-or-hint-of-orwell/592627/16 "2011-08-15T17:43:33Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > On the one hand, I understand that public safety could have been an issue. On the other hand, I don’t know that a part of the planned demonstration was to bring weapons and assault people, so I’m not sure what actual public safety issues there really were. I don’t think I’d have a problem seeing that a flash mob that was directed to bring Molotov cocktails would warrant an effort to suppress the medium the message was being passed through, but what about a demonstration that is planned without violence? Is the mere fact that some violence could occur when people demonstrate enough to warrant this type of shutdown in _any_ planned protest? While a subway station is clearly designed to handle large crowds of people, the inherent presumption (inherent in the design of the station, in how the transit operator manages it, and in how passengers use it) is that the crowd is there to board trains and that there’s a flow of people as trains arrive, people exit trains, people board trains, and trains leave. A large number of people standing on the platform with no intention of boarding a train is a disruption. We’re not talking about a public plaza but an exceedingly enclosed space with limited exits. Add a “civil disobedience” element of intentionally blocking others from boarding/exiting trains, even if that’s done wholly non-violently, and I can see a raft of public safety issues without anyone bringing weapons or intending to assault anyone. Again, enclosed space with limited exits; a block-the-path-with-your-bodies peaceful protest that presents no danger on the street could be disastrous in a subway station. Watch the news video posted by **Magiver**. Though apparently none of the protestors attacked anyone, the public safety issues are obvious: trapping other people on subway cars, and backing up the flow of trains so that stations became overcrowded, at the height of rush hour. Imagine all the complaints you’ve seen about tourists on the Washington DC Metro, London Tube, etc. who don’t understand the need to _move_, and multiply them a hundred-fold because at least the tourists intend to get on a train in their own sweet time. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Yodalicious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yodalicious/32/8195_2.png) [@Yodalicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yodalicious)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2011, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-cel-phone-shutdown-safety-issue-or-hint-of-orwell/592627/17 "2011-08-15T17:50:04Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, Bart didn’t really block cell phone service as such, so (no offense) are you sure you’ve written an accurate description of what Anonymous is doing? Yes. [Here’s an article](http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-501465_162-20092491-501465.html) that better sums up what I’m trying to say. Also, apparently it was LulzSec that hacked PSN. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2011, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-cel-phone-shutdown-safety-issue-or-hint-of-orwell/592627/18 "2011-08-15T17:52:29Z")
Merged the thread started by **Daddypants** into a slightly older one started by **Snowboarder Bo**. The posts made to **Daddypants** ’ thread are now posts 14, 15, and 17. ---
**Author:** ![Yodalicious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yodalicious/32/8195_2.png) [@Yodalicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yodalicious)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2011, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-cel-phone-shutdown-safety-issue-or-hint-of-orwell/592627/19 "2011-08-15T18:12:16Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Merged the thread started by **Daddypants** into a slightly older one started by **Snowboarder Bo**. The posts made to **Daddypants** ’ thread are now posts 14, 15, and 17. Thanks! Didn’t see the original thread. ---
**Author:** ![Yodalicious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yodalicious/32/8195_2.png) [@Yodalicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yodalicious)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2011, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-cel-phone-shutdown-safety-issue-or-hint-of-orwell/592627/20 "2011-08-15T20:42:02Z")
And [here they are](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/15/kelly-thomas-anonymous_n_927305.html?ir=Technology) threatening to take down the Fullerton Police Department’s website and communications. That will really do wonders for public safety. :rolleyes: [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-cel-phone-shutdown-safety-issue-or-hint-of-orwell/592627.md?page=2)