# San Francisco trying to ban the free company lunch for techies **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 26, 2018, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-trying-to-ban-the-free-company-lunch-for-techies/818641 "2018-07-26T21:41:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-trying-to-ban-the-free-company-lunch-for-techies/818641/61 "2018-07-27T18:42:32Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > And this plan to ban free company lunches is clearly stupid. If I hire somebody, buy a box of donuts, and let him have one of my donuts, that act should not illegal. That’s not the issue at hand. The issue at hand is allowing food service preparation within office buildings. That’s a zoning issue. People can still bring their lunch, buy some donuts, etc. But zoning controls where people can locate restaurants, or food service preparation. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-trying-to-ban-the-free-company-lunch-for-techies/818641/62 "2018-07-27T18:45:12Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > This isn’t about personal demeanor of the CEOs of the companies; that is a separate issue. It’s about how these businesses have impacts on the communities that aren’t adequately taken into account by relying on the companies deciding what is best for themselves. I’m not talking about personal demeanor. I’m saying, when Amazon strong-arms Seattle into rolling back a tax meant to reduce homelessness in the city, it’s not the guy whose spending sixteen hours at his desk debugging code that’s doing that. The lack of community consciousness among tech companies comes from management. If you have a problem with that - and you absolutely should - you should be going after the people who run these companies. You should not be going after the labor. > [@](#): > > But I’m curious as to the bolded part – do you think things like free lunches make these companies more community minded? How so? No, obviously not. It’s entirely unrelated to community engagement, which is what makes this measure such a bad idea. If you want more community-minded tech companies, go after the top of the structure, not the bottom. This measure isn’t about making corporations more responsible, it’s about punishing the people who work for them. > [@](#): > > I completely agree that housing policy in the Bay Area is a serious problem – but obviously there’s a connection to the tech industry. You’re right to say that it is not all laid at the feet of the tech industry, but neither do I absolve them of their role in the problem. I don’t think the industry is maliciously trying to create the problem, to be clear. What is their role in the problem, other than existing and needing a workforce? What specific measures can tech companies take to fix the housing crisis? Build apartment complexes to house their own workers? Bringing back the concept of a company town certainly would go a long way toward re-enforcing the similarities between tech and the old robber barons, but I have a hard time calling it “progress.” ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-trying-to-ban-the-free-company-lunch-for-techies/818641/63 "2018-07-27T18:47:35Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > That’s not the issue at hand. The issue at hand is allowing food service preparation within office buildings. That’s a zoning issue. People can still bring their lunch, buy some donuts, etc. But zoning controls where people can locate restaurants, or food service preparation. As I understand it that’s not true; in this thread it’s been suggested that zoning laws could be used to achieve this harebrained end, but I don’t get the impression that the legislation at hand is being structured as a zoning issue over food preparation. (The article specifically mentions _tax-free_ cafeterias, not just any old place that sells food.) But in any case, the stated goal of the law is to prevent me from sharing my donuts, because the donut sellers around me are mad that I’m robbing them of business. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-trying-to-ban-the-free-company-lunch-for-techies/818641/64 "2018-07-27T18:53:14Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I’m aware of office buildings that have had parking spaces limited due to zoning regulations that seek to avoid congestion and push people to take public transit. Bad analogy. Are you aware of companies that are forbidden to supply any parking places at all? Generally, the rules work the other way-- build an office building, and you have to build a certain number of parking spaces to go with it. Whether you charge for parking or not is up to the owner. I’m not disputing legality of zoning laws. Cities can zone pretty much the way they like. I’m noting that this is a stupid practice that favors certain businesses looking for protection by the government. If the restaurant owners were smart, they would figure out a way to operate satellite food service stations at these companies. This is a function that a company generally does do with in-house employees, but subcontracts it out to people who know how to prepare food. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-trying-to-ban-the-free-company-lunch-for-techies/818641/65 "2018-07-27T19:01:17Z")
Next up: ban on brown-bagging. Disclaimer: I brown-bagged my entire career. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-trying-to-ban-the-free-company-lunch-for-techies/818641/66 "2018-07-27T19:12:00Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Bad analogy. Are you aware of companies that are forbidden to supply any parking places at all? No, I think it’s a great analogy given the differences between the subjects at hand. Nobody would propose that tech companies could only provide a certain number of lunches - that’s even more silly. > [@](#): > > I’m not disputing legality of zoning laws. Cities can zone pretty much the way they like. I’m noting that this is a stupid practice that favors certain businesses looking for protection by the government. All zoning is about putting certain interests above others. > [@](#): > > If the restaurant owners were smart, they would figure out a way to operate satellite food service stations at these companies. Not sure how you’d expect the restaurants to compete with “free cafeteria.” Let me also acknowledge one substantive point: I have no clue the merits of this proposal, as to whether it would actually achieve the desired ends. That’s why I’m not saying it is a wonderful idea. I am saying that no business has an inherent right to have a cafeteria, and that all the whining about loss of free lunches makes me feel about as bad for these employees and companies as when Jeffrey Skillings’ wife complained that she was left with “nothing” after the bankruptcy. Yeah, nothing but your multimillion dollar houses. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-trying-to-ban-the-free-company-lunch-for-techies/818641/67 "2018-07-27T19:32:55Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I’m aware of office buildings that have had parking spaces limited due to zoning regulations that seek to avoid congestion and push people to take public transit. Actually, those tech companies you hate provide buses for their employees so that they can go directly from things like transit stations to work, or even from places with slightly more affordable housing. Facebook is working on providing housing within walking distance from their campus. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-trying-to-ban-the-free-company-lunch-for-techies/818641/68 "2018-07-27T19:43:14Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Not sure how you’d expect the restaurants to compete with “free cafeteria.” You think employees of the company work at the cafeteria? Hardly. It is all contracted out to food services. We got free coffee (not free lunches) where I worked, but there was still a Peet’s stand in the cafeteria for those wanting espresso drinks. Restaurants could try to negotiate coming in every so often. > [@](#): > > Let me also acknowledge one substantive point: I have no clue the merits of this proposal, as to whether it would actually achieve the desired ends. That’s why I’m not saying it is a wonderful idea. I am saying that no business has an inherent right to have a cafeteria, and that all the whining about loss of free lunches makes me feel about as bad for these employees and companies as when Jeffrey Skillings’ wife complained that she was left with “nothing” after the bankruptcy. Yeah, nothing but your multimillion dollar houses. Not everyone who works at these companies make six figures. You are screwing the lower paid employees also, who get relatively more benefit from the policy than the rich ones. And it is not just tech companies. My wife worked for a drug company in Philadelphia over 40 years ago which had a subsidized cafeteria. Hollywood studios have subsidized cafeterias. All film operations I’ve ever been at have craft services - free lunches and dinners depending on how long filming is taking. And every Western Electric factory I’ve been to (quite a few) had cafeterias also. Free is relatively new, but if you ban free they’ll charge a buck a meal or something, and the restaurants won’t be any better off. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-trying-to-ban-the-free-company-lunch-for-techies/818641/69 "2018-07-27T19:48:37Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I’m increasingly confident of my view that tech companies are generally about as ethical as the railroads at the turn of the 20th century: what they are doing is very important, but the way they do it is not to the benefit of the public at large. I’m playing the world’s smallest violin for those who want a free lunch. Well, it’s not only tech companies, it is ALL new companies in SF. And in SF it is NOT just free lunches, companies wont even be allowed to have any cafeterias. Milpitas banned free lunches in new buildings. _Supervisors Ahsha Safaí and Aaron Peskin are co-sponsoring an ordinance that would ban “employee cafeterias” from new office buildings in the city. …In a similar effort, Mountain View barred companies from providing employees with fully subsidized meals inside a new office development._ So while I understand your ire at Tech, this would apply to non-profits, hospitals, small family owned businesses, and whatever industry you work in. If you read on, this is purely a money grab by the restaurant industry. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-trying-to-ban-the-free-company-lunch-for-techies/818641/70 "2018-07-27T19:48:58Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > As I understand it that’s not true; in this thread it’s been suggested that zoning laws could be used to achieve this harebrained end, but I don’t get the impression that the legislation at hand is being structured as a zoning issue over food preparation. (The article specifically mentions _tax-free_ cafeterias, not just any old place that sells food.) > > But in any case, the stated goal of the law is to prevent me from sharing my donuts, because the donut sellers around me are mad that I’m robbing them of business. The [text of the ordinance changes](https://sfgov.legistar.com/View.ashx?M=F&ID=6398484&GUID=89AEC071-5CB4-479B-8F23-18988A5B8F9D)that are being proposed are here. This is a [slightly cleaner version](https://sfgov.legistar.com/View.ashx?M=F&ID=6398485&GUID=221BA5B5-F249-48BC-8E2A-56BCCB6A4533)of the same language. This is a zoning issue: > [@](#): > > The definition of “Office, General” in Section 102 is amended to provide it is subject to the > operating conditions of Section 202.2. Section 202.2 is amended to provide that an “Employee > Cafeteria,” as defined in Health Code Section 451(h), is prohibited in Office space but that any > such use lawfully existing or finally approved as of July 24, 2018 may continue and be > maintained. It may not, however, be expanded or re-installed if abandoned. Here is the[definition of Employee Cafeteria:](http://library.amlegal.com/nxt/gateway.dll/California/health/article8foodandfoodproducts?f=templates$fn=default.htm$3.0$vid=amlegal:sanfrancisco_ca) > [@](#): > > (h) “Employee Cafeteria” means a food facility located within business premises where the business employees are provided or sold food on a regular basis. Food and drink are not regularly served to the public and the food establishment is not subject to tax. The operators of the food facility are either employees of the business or are contracted by that business. The “tax free” language in the article is in reference to the definition of Employee Cafeteria, but the tax/non tax portion of the food service isn’t critical to what is being proposed. In looking at the text of the proposed ordinance, the stated goal is not to prevent you from sharing donuts. Even if passed it wouldn’t be applicable to sharing donuts. The purpose is left blank to be adopted with a later resolution, so long as it conforms to: > [@](#): > > (c) Pursuant to Planning Code Section 302, the Board of Supervisors finds that this > ordinance will serve the public necessity, convenience, and welfare for the reasons stated in > Planning Commission Resolution No. \_\_\_\_\_\_. So yeah, zoning issue. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-trying-to-ban-the-free-company-lunch-for-techies/818641/71 "2018-07-27T19:54:19Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > You’re aware that slippery slope arguments are a fallacy, right? > My larger argument, setting aside the issue of lunch, is that tech companies are making generally rational decisions for themselves that have consequences on the rest of the community. See for example, small houses in Palo Alto selling for $2 million or more. Arguing that they are acting in their own self-interest is completely missing the point. Not always- wiki: “A slippery slope argument (SSA), in logic, critical thinking, political rhetoric, and caselaw, is a consequentialist logical device[1] in which a party asserts that a relatively small first step leads to a chain of related events culminating in some significant (usually negative) effect.[2] The core of the slippery slope argument is that a specific decision under debate is likely to result in unintended consequences. The strength of such an argument depends on the warrant, i.e. whether or not one can demonstrate a process that leads to the significant effect.” In other words, if the slope and subsequent events can be shown, it is not a fallacy. Again, this law is not limited to tech companies. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-trying-to-ban-the-free-company-lunch-for-techies/818641/72 "2018-07-27T19:55:38Z")
It’s as was mentioned, rent seeking behavior by the local restaurant owners who are hoodwinking\* whatever local politicians are going along with it. The food and related service are being paid for by somebody either way, employing people producing them either way. The local eateries are just seeking a law saying ‘it has to be us’. Classic rent seeking. And the only defense offered here is a general bloody mindedness toward big tech, ‘well they deserve to be harassed by local govt’. Which has an element of misdirection since it isn’t clear who in ‘the corporation’\*\* is most hurt by this, besides applying to all co’s not just tech. Mainly it misses the real point of needing to think and rethink seriously about antitrust as it relates to big tech. That’s a real issue, though without IMO a single clear solution. This is just a bunch of BS. \*at best, if it isn’t something more corrupt than that \*\*always the ambiguity when people complain about ‘corporations’, who exactly do they mean: shareholders, management, employees (at different levels)? Clearly in this case it would be a negative for people who work for the company (or outside contractors of the company) providing the ‘free’ meals. Other than that it’s somewhat ambiguous, besides again benefit at govt behest for the rent seekers. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-trying-to-ban-the-free-company-lunch-for-techies/818641/73 "2018-07-27T19:56:12Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > No, I think it’s a great analogy given the differences between the subjects at hand. Nobody would propose that tech companies could only provide a certain number of lunches - that’s even more silly. They are proposing that Tech Companies provide 0 lunches. Yes, that is silly. And not just Tech Companies. Any new company setting up shop. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-trying-to-ban-the-free-company-lunch-for-techies/818641/74 "2018-07-27T19:59:55Z")
Except it’s fucking ridiculous as a “zoning issue” because every office building has shops and restaurants on the ground floor. And it’s not about restricting food preparation, it’s just restricting company cafeterias. This is just about the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard of. The only odd thing about it is that usually the local politicians fall all over themselves to provide favors for big corporations and give local small businesses the shaft. In this case it’s the reverse, but still no better. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-trying-to-ban-the-free-company-lunch-for-techies/818641/75 "2018-07-27T20:00:51Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Yeah, basically. ETA: or maybe a little more of, I just don’t care that much when the highly privileged may have a perk curtailed in the future, and certainly don’t see it as a matter of liberty. So, since this law effects all companies, of which tech companies are a small part, then you agree it’s a bad law? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-trying-to-ban-the-free-company-lunch-for-techies/818641/76 "2018-07-27T20:12:10Z")
I understand hat Hooli is lobbying intensely against this proposed law. Gavin [del]Newsom[/del] Belson is furious. Pied Piper has been silent on the issue, so far. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-trying-to-ban-the-free-company-lunch-for-techies/818641/77 "2018-07-27T20:12:23Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Actually, those tech companies you hate provide buses for their employees so that they can go directly from things like transit stations to work, or even from places with slightly more affordable housing. What?? And rob the stores between them of all that walk-past traffic? Unfair! The city needs to put a stop to that pronto. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-trying-to-ban-the-free-company-lunch-for-techies/818641/78 "2018-07-27T20:37:03Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > So yeah, zoning issue. Fair 'nuff. It’s still stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-trying-to-ban-the-free-company-lunch-for-techies/818641/79 "2018-07-27T21:51:31Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I’m not following what meaingless nit you’re trying to pick. Only that you complained that you were misquoted, when it looked more like you were (at best) unclear in your original post about what you actually meant. Possibly you don’t care about that. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-trying-to-ban-the-free-company-lunch-for-techies/818641/80 "2018-07-27T21:57:10Z")
As a techie who has worked in the Bay Area in the past, consulted to them, etc… 1. These are not benefits. Instead, they keep you at your desk working. Yes, the cafeteria has seats - but I would argue that 50% of the employees take their food back to their cubicle. The “free” lunch keeps lunch down to a 20 minute exercise, instead of an hour. You lose the walk, etc. 2. A lot of places don’t have the full cafeteria (though I have dined at Google, Rockwell, Salesforce, and the US State Department). What a lot of smaller companies do is contract: > **[Kitchenina - Farm to table Catering Services](https://kitchenina.com/#menu)** > > Organic, delicious, home-cooked food for a healthy lifestyle > **[EAT Club](https://www.eatclub.com/menu/1/)** > > EAT Club helps companies big and small set up a meal program that's right for them. They provide a pre-paid account, and anything over that you pay for yourself. The food itself is often sourced from local vendors, benefiting the businesses much like Uber Eats or Postmates provides. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-trying-to-ban-the-free-company-lunch-for-techies/818641.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-trying-to-ban-the-free-company-lunch-for-techies/818641.md?page=5)