# San Francisco trying to ban the free company lunch for techies **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 26, 2018, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-trying-to-ban-the-free-company-lunch-for-techies/818641 "2018-07-26T21:41:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-trying-to-ban-the-free-company-lunch-for-techies/818641/141 "2018-07-30T22:30:52Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > What is “the city”? Just taking Google as one example of the commercial entities of the city–Google is larger than the city. It’s larger than many states and countries. Google is part of the the city. It’s one of the most important components of the city, with the ability to make massive changes in the environment, economy, infrastructure, culture, etc., with each intentional or unintentional decision. > > Every commercial entity is a component of “the city” and is responsible for the effect of its actions on “the city” and is responsible for making decisions that affect “the city” and its residents. > > The idea that a commercial entity has absolutely no moral or ethical responsibility for the impact of its decisions is ridiculous. Google is changing the city by its very existence. Every decision it makes should be filtered through that reality. > > Google shouldn’t make even one policy decision without considering the impact on the communities its decisions affect. > > And because of that impact, everyone in the community should have a say in Google’s decision-making, especially when it might be setting a standard for work hours and other lifestyle matters. That’s all good and well if it’s your opinion, but it’s not the way things operate in real life. The government is absolutely the entity that needs to make decision like how much and what type of transit will be built. And like I aid earlier, if the government is smart they will solicit input from the various stakeholders and if Google is smart they will participate in the process. They might even initiate a lobbying effort if they see a need that isn’t being met. But the decision about what actually gets done is the government’s to make. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-trying-to-ban-the-free-company-lunch-for-techies/818641/142 "2018-07-30T22:39:34Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > What is “the city”? Just taking Google as one example of the commercial entities of the city–Google is larger than the city. It’s larger than many states and countries. Google is part of the the city. It’s one of the most important components of the city, with the ability to make massive changes in the environment, economy, infrastructure, culture, etc., with each intentional or unintentional decision. > > Every commercial entity is a component of “the city” and is responsible for the effect of its actions on “the city” and is responsible for making decisions that affect “the city” and its residents. > > The idea that a commercial entity has absolutely no moral or ethical responsibility for the impact of its decisions is ridiculous. Google is changing the city by its very existence. Every decision it makes should be filtered through that reality. > > Google shouldn’t make even one policy decision without considering the impact on the communities its decisions affect. > > And because of that impact, everyone in the community should have a say in Google’s decision-making, especially when it might be setting a standard for work hours and other lifestyle matters. Well, that sounds like a perfect formula to ensure that you will attract no more Googles to your city, and for Google to make sure that any expansion it does is in a place where the ‘community’ doesn’t get to dictate its business rules. We had an NDP mayor once, and she blew more than one big corporate decision to move here and create jobs by basically haranging the business owners about their ‘community responsibilities’ and warning them that they would be watched carefully for the way they treated their workers, the environment, etc. I remember one of those people being interviewed (after he decided to move his business to Calgary), and he said, “My experience in Edmonton was unique in that it’s the first city we went to where the mayor made it clear that our investment and jobs were not welcome.” Silicon Valley has large lock-in forces keeping the tech train running there. So long as that’s where the venture capitalists, tech press and the tech talent lives, companies will be forced to be there if for no reason than that the other companies they compete against or work with are also there. But if crazy California continues with policies that drive rents through the roof while letting their infrastructure crumble and continually micro-managing companies with stupid laws like this, those companies will eventually leave. And if a few big ones leave, the rest could easily follow. Think it can’t happen? Have a look at Detroit. It was the Silicon Valley of the pre-digital age. Now it’s a shell of a city wracked with poverty and crime. California was saved from financial ruin by the second tech bubble. It NEEDS those companies more than those companies need it. If Google, Apple, and Microsoft all decided to relocate to Houston Texas, California would be screwed. That might be something to keep in mind the next time you want to push one of these companies around to please other rent-seeking companies or because of ideology. All it would take is another popping of the tech bubble. These companies tolerate the craziness because they are making huge profits. Take that away and force them to start looking where to cut expenses rather than how fast they can hire, and you could see an exodus to states that are more business friendly. I noticed in the news today that GE’s ‘Center of Excellence’ in San Ramon is now up for sale. GE tried to consolidate its engineering talent in silicon valley, laying off the engineers in flyover country and Canada who were actually close to the industries they sold software to and knew them intimately, in favor of a bunch of 20-something silicon valley coders. It ended badly. Now GE Digital is no more. Four billion dollars down the drain. Peter Thiel, co-founder of Paypal and serial startup entrepreneur, has given up on Silicon Valley and is taking his businesses elsewhere. It won’t take much of that kind of thing before you could see an exodus of companies into low-tax, low regulation states. ---
**Author:** ![blob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blob/32/489_2.png) [@blob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blob)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-trying-to-ban-the-free-company-lunch-for-techies/818641/143 "2018-07-30T23:19:05Z")
> [@Shalmanese](#): > > it would be both cheaper and more convenient to Uber/Lyft there than to take your private vehicle. Do you have any idea of the number of employees big corporations or universities have on their industrial estates/campuses? Suggesting that thousands/tens of thousands of employees all get uber rides to get from their workplaces into a city centre and then get an uber back to work after waiting in line to get something to eat is even more ridiculous than suggesting they can drive there and back. It is impracticable, either way. There’s a reason for providing food on the sites. Perhaps they could drive the proposers of this law out there so they can see what THEY are talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2018, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-trying-to-ban-the-free-company-lunch-for-techies/818641/144 "2018-07-31T00:15:06Z")
**blob** , I realize there’s two interrelated geographies being discussed here. On one hand, there’s San Francisco, a very dense city with highrises downtown and really, really bad traffic. On the other, there’s Silicon Valley, which is office parks and generally wide boulevards. So while there’s a discussion about people in Silicon Valley leaving their corporate campuses by the thousands to get in their cars, the law being discussed for San Francisco does not apply to Silicon Valley, since it is not in San Francisco. For San Francisco, nobody is going to get in their cars and drive a few blocks to a restaurant. They are going to walk somewhere if they go out. So when you made a comment about how bad it would be for workers to get in their cars, I responded that this isn’t going to happen in San Francisco. It seems clearer that you’re talking about working at corporate campuses that aren’t in San Francisco; but those jurisdictions aren’t talking about this sort of law. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2018, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-trying-to-ban-the-free-company-lunch-for-techies/818641/145 "2018-07-31T00:20:40Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > **blob** , > So while there’s a discussion about people in Silicon Valley leaving their corporate campuses by the thousands to get in their cars, the law being discussed for San Francisco does not apply to Silicon Valley, since it is not in San Francisco. > So when you made a comment about how bad it would be for workers to get in their cars, I responded that this isn’t going to happen in San Francisco. It seems clearer that you’re talking about working at corporate campuses that aren’t in San Francisco; but those jurisdictions aren’t talking about this sort of law. Actually, if you read the article, it also talks about a similar Mtn View law. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2018, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-trying-to-ban-the-free-company-lunch-for-techies/818641/146 "2018-07-31T01:17:50Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Actually, if you read the article, it also talks about a similar Mtn View law. Well, right you are. Color me embarrassed. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2018, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-trying-to-ban-the-free-company-lunch-for-techies/818641/147 "2018-07-31T02:56:33Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > **blob** , I realize there’s two interrelated geographies being discussed here. On one hand, there’s San Francisco, a very dense city with highrises downtown and really, really bad traffic. On the other, there’s Silicon Valley, which is office parks and generally wide boulevards. Office parks, wide boulevards, and lots and lots of cars on those boulevards. Rush hour extends from 6:30 am to easily 10:30 am, and from 2:30 to 7 pm, at least. Might be worse, I haven’t had to commute for a couple of years. Non-freeways get jammed also, sometimes worse than the freeways. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2018, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-trying-to-ban-the-free-company-lunch-for-techies/818641/148 "2018-07-31T03:08:22Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Silicon Valley has large lock-in forces keeping the tech train running there. So long as that’s where the venture capitalists, tech press and the tech talent lives, companies will be forced to be there if for no reason than that the other companies they compete against or work with are also there. But if crazy California continues with policies that drive rents through the roof while letting their infrastructure crumble and continually micro-managing companies with stupid laws like this, those companies will eventually leave. And if a few big ones leave, the rest could easily follow. Think it can’t happen? Have a look at Detroit. It was the Silicon Valley of the pre-digital age. Now it’s a shell of a city wracked with poverty and crime. > > California was saved from financial ruin by the second tech bubble. It NEEDS those companies more than those companies need it. If Google, Apple, and Microsoft all decided to relocate to Houston Texas, California would be screwed. That might be something to keep in mind the next time you want to push one of these companies around to please other rent-seeking companies or because of ideology. > > All it would take is another popping of the tech bubble. These companies tolerate the craziness because they are making huge profits. Take that away and force them to start looking where to cut expenses rather than how fast they can hire, and you could see an exodus to states that are more business friendly. California got in trouble thanks to the Bush recession - and to dysfunctional state government, which ended when we more or less kicked the Republicans out of having any real power. Yeah, thanks to Prop 13 we are overly sensitive to employment fluctuations. As for companies on the verge of leaving, oddly enough in the past decade or so they have been flocking to San Francisco, hardly the most business friendly place in the world. When I moved here there was very little tech in San Francisco. Most everyone here has had the experience of changing jobs in the Valley. Unless you are in Austin or maybe Seattle, hiring is going to involve relocation. When I left Bell Labs and moved here it was stressful and disruptive to my family. When I changed jobs in the Valley they hardly noticed. Yeah, 45% or so say they want to leave, mostly due to traffic and housing prices. But our population still is increasing. And then there is the weather … ---
**Author:** ![Infovore](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infovore/32/420_2.png) [@Infovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Infovore)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2018, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-trying-to-ban-the-free-company-lunch-for-techies/818641/149 "2018-07-31T04:06:21Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Office parks, wide boulevards, and lots and lots of cars on those boulevards. Rush hour extends from 6:30 am to easily 10:30 am, and from 2:30 to 7 pm, at least. Might be worse, I haven’t had to commute for a couple of years. Non-freeways get jammed also, sometimes worse than the freeways. This. My spouse (the one who works at the Spaceship) got relocated there a few months ago. Before that, he was working at an Apple office in Sunnyvale. His commute now is no longer miles-wise than his old one was, but instead of taking over an hour to get to work, he now takes about half an hour in reasonable traffic. It’s all because there was no easy way to get from where we live to Sunnyvale, but it’s a straight shot up the freeway to Cupertino. ---
**Author:** ![ScarletNinny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f9ae1b/32.png) [@ScarletNinny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ScarletNinny)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2018, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-trying-to-ban-the-free-company-lunch-for-techies/818641/150 "2018-07-31T05:54:52Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > I’m reminded of the debate years ago when I lived in South Dakota, about whether the state should allow vending machines at rest areas on the Interstate. > > Yes, there actually was stiff resistance from businesses (especially restaurants) located within a few miles from Interstate exits. They figured that if you could get candy, chips and soda at the rest stops, you wouldn’t take the exit and drive for miles into town for refreshments. > > The S.F. proposal is anti-worker; the South Dakota kerfuffle (resolved in favor of vending machines) was essentially anti-tourist/traveler. In both cases the driving factor is/was greed. Well I think in SD that the restaurants had a point. Why should the state be competing with private business? ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2018, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-trying-to-ban-the-free-company-lunch-for-techies/818641/151 "2018-07-31T05:56:52Z")
> [@blob](#): > > Do you have any idea of the number of employees big corporations or universities have on their industrial estates/campuses? Suggesting that thousands/tens of thousands of employees all get uber rides to get from their workplaces into a city centre and then get an uber back to work after waiting in line to get something to eat is even more ridiculous than suggesting they can drive there and back. > > It is impracticable, either way. There’s a reason for providing food on the sites. Perhaps they could drive the proposers of this law out there so they can see what THEY are talking about. Nobody from industrial campuses are driving into downtown San Francisco just to get lunch (unless they have a meeting there). I’m talking about people who work downtown, getting lunch from a downtown establishment. Even people who commute by car into work every day and need to go to a restaurant slightly too far to walk are still going to take an uber/lyft over taking their car out of the garage and driving there. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2018, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-trying-to-ban-the-free-company-lunch-for-techies/818641/152 "2018-07-31T12:26:30Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > I’m reminded of the debate years ago when I lived in South Dakota, about whether the state should allow vending machines at rest areas on the Interstate. > > Yes, there actually was stiff resistance from businesses (especially restaurants) located within a few miles from Interstate exits. They figured that if you could get candy, chips and soda at the rest stops, you wouldn’t take the exit and drive for miles into town for refreshments. > [@ScarletNinny](#): > > Well I think in SD that the restaurants had a point. Why should the state be competing with private business? Come to think of it, why should there be rest stops on the Interstate? If you want a break/nap while on a long drive, you should take the exit into town and check into a motel. The government shouldn’t be competing with private business in that way. :dubious: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/san-francisco-trying-to-ban-the-free-company-lunch-for-techies/818641.md?page=7)