# Sanderista primaries out 10-term Dem Congressman **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [June 27, 2018, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanderista-primaries-out-10-term-dem-congressman/816850 "2018-06-27T17:45:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanderista-primaries-out-10-term-dem-congressman/816850/201 "2018-07-18T16:15:36Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > You’re just latching on to a literal quote that you’ve deliberately taken out of context. > > This is nothing more than “You didn’t build that,” the 2018 version. > > Nice try, but I think everyone else understands what she meant. Look, when people are so balls to the wall nuts on economics, who knows what they are trying to say. In her case, she appears to be an effective communicator, so I am pretty sure she chose her words carefully. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanderista-primaries-out-10-term-dem-congressman/816850/202 "2018-07-18T16:19:14Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > She has a BA in economics. The reasonable thing to think is she phrased it poorly. Like I said, you are trying to read her in the worst possible light, even going so far as to ignore things she plainly said, as I pointed out in post 190. Taken with her other wild claims, I am unsure what is reasonable to think. > [@Human\_Action](#): > > Again, she didn’t say “the unemployment rate is calculated via the number of jobs divided by the number of people”. So either way, we’re looking at a certain amount of interpretation - this is a live interview, not a book. My interpretation is consistent with her other remarks, and makes sense. Yours is much less so. So yeah, I’m going with the one that makes sense in the context in which it was uttered. You do you. Ok, maybe you can be my translator for the wild claims of these progressives. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanderista-primaries-out-10-term-dem-congressman/816850/203 "2018-07-18T16:23:05Z")
You’re awfully animated about this point, **Will**. Why so? Never mind that it’s a completely Doperish thing to examine a rhetorical, off-the-cuff statement overliterally and overnarrowly. But I do think most of us know what she meant, and that she’s right. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanderista-primaries-out-10-term-dem-congressman/816850/204 "2018-07-18T16:27:12Z")
What’s interesting about this thread is that virtually every criticism about Alexandria Ocasio Cortez has been either wrong or easily rebutted. I’m sure there’s a lot to criticize her about, but I haven’t seen anything so far with any merit. She’s going to get mercilessly ridiculed by the press, but she can take comfort in the fact that this is the same group of morons that engaged in false equivalency between Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton throughout the entire campaign. It’s also the same moronic press that Bernie pushed aside and overpowered by talking directly with the people. That’s what she needs to do. Ignore the haters, AOC! ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanderista-primaries-out-10-term-dem-congressman/816850/205 "2018-07-18T16:28:16Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Look, when people are so balls to the wall nuts on economics, who knows what they are trying to say. In her case, she appears to be an effective communicator, so I am pretty sure she chose her words carefully. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanderista-primaries-out-10-term-dem-congressman/816850/206 "2018-07-18T16:35:44Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Taken with her other wild claims, I am unsure what is reasonable to think. Remember way back 20 posts ago when you said she could have said unemployment numbers were a bad metric and I pointed out she quite clearly did? Then you changed the subject? What would a reasonable person think about that? ---
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanderista-primaries-out-10-term-dem-congressman/816850/207 "2018-07-18T16:41:04Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > What’s interesting about this thread is that virtually every criticism about Alexandria Ocasio Cortez has been either wrong or easily rebutted. I’m sure there’s a lot to criticize her about, but I haven’t seen anything so far with any merit. > > She’s going to get mercilessly ridiculed by the press, but she can take comfort in the fact that this is the same group of morons that engaged in false equivalency between Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton throughout the entire campaign. It’s also the same moronic press that Bernie pushed aside and overpowered by talking directly with the people. That’s what she needs to do. > > Ignore the haters, AOC! Um, actually the press has been fawning all over her and suggesting that her fluke win is some sign of the future. Here’s one example from this week’s New Yorker. [Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez’s Historic Win and the Future of the Democratic Party | The New Yorker](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/07/23/alexandria-ocasio-cortezs-historic-win-and-the-future-of-the-democratic-party?mbid=nl_Magazine%20Daily%20List%20071618&CNDID=27314753&spMailingID=13883638&spUserID=MTMzMTgyODM4NDY0S0&spJobID=1441355577&spReportId=MTQ0MTM1NTU3NwS2) AOC has accomplished nothing so far besides a fluke win in a heavily Democratic congressional district. I’m not quite sure she deserves a multi page story in The New Yorker. Most of the Sanders backed candidates have lost and most have lost badly. AOC’s win doesn’t mean a sudden leftward shift for the Democrats. She was smart enough to run on an anti-ICE platform during a time where the news was dominated by the horrible Trump separation policy. Plus, Crowley was arrogant enough to send a surrogate to one of the debates. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanderista-primaries-out-10-term-dem-congressman/816850/208 "2018-07-18T16:45:25Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Ok, maybe you can be my translator for the wild claims of these progressives. We all bring our assumptions to the table. For instance, earlier you said: > [@](#): > > She claims we have “hyper-capitalism”. We are plunging in the economic freedom index and rank below some much ballyhooed Scandinavian countries. Clearly, to you, hyper-capitalism means maximum economic freedom. To AOC, hyper-capitalism is probably something quite different: placing private profits over everything else, perhaps, based on her comments in this interview. ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanderista-primaries-out-10-term-dem-congressman/816850/209 "2018-07-18T17:01:35Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > If you don’t have a replacement for ICE, then you don’t want to enforce immigration law. If I call to abolish the IRS, what does that mean of my opinion of tax enforcement? > > What is ICE doing wrong that can’t be corrected with simple legislation? The IRS was reformed with simple legislation. > > The difference between ICE and the INS is that ICE has more resources and more power to deport people. The Abolish ICE folks don’t want to deport anyone, so this is bad. They want to go back to the old system that deported a lot fewer people. Of course, you could just pass a law exempting most undocumented immigrants from deportation, but that would take bravery. > > As for OCasio-Cortez, she continues to do interviews and that’s looking like a really bad idea. Crowley is still on that ballot and he’s not coming off. He could win just by being on that ballot. FWIW, although I understand what the “Abolish ICE” folks are actually saying and agree with them, I agree that the slogan itself is horrible and makes it way too easy to construct strawmen arguments like “You want completely open borders!”. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanderista-primaries-out-10-term-dem-congressman/816850/210 "2018-07-18T17:08:32Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > FWIW, although I understand what the “Abolish ICE” folks are actually saying and agree with them, I agree that the slogan itself is horrible and makes it way too easy to construct strawmen arguments like “You want completely open borders!”. Yeah, I think all they are saying is return to the situation back before ICE was created, which wasn’t that long ago. ---
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanderista-primaries-out-10-term-dem-congressman/816850/211 "2018-07-18T17:09:36Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > FWIW, although I understand what the “Abolish ICE” folks are actually saying and agree with them, I agree that the slogan itself is horrible and makes it way too easy to construct strawmen arguments like “You want completely open borders!”. I agree 100% with you (and I know we rarely agree on politics!) Abolish ICE is a horrible theme to run on nationally. Most voters don’t know the difference between all the alphabet soup of government agencies that are responsible for immigration and all the changes that occurred after Sept. 11 and they assume ICE is the agency that’s responsible for all aspects of immigration, customs, asylum, and border enforcement. It is way too easy for the right to throw up strawman arguments about people streaming across the border along with an endless supply of drugs. Look how successful Trump has been tying immigrants to MS 13, an organisation that no one had heard of a year ago. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanderista-primaries-out-10-term-dem-congressman/816850/212 "2018-07-18T19:29:05Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Holy shit she said unemployment is low “because everyone has two jobs”. This is someone who admits she is not an expert on geopolitics but is an economics major. Wow. Then she said “Unemployment is low because people are working 60, 70, 80 hours a week, and can barely feed their kids.” This is an amazing display of ignorance for someone who plays up their economics background. > > This is the state of economics education in the US. Good thing there are probably thousands of homeschooled free market kids who could smash these lightweights who were drooling over their iPads at that age. The future is bright. > > [https://reason.com/blog/2018/07/17/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-unemployment/amp?\_\_twitter\_impression=true](https://reason.com/blog/2018/07/17/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-unemployment/amp?__twitter_impression=true) I will simply point out that this is akin to bemoaning the state of modern health education while pinning one’s hope on homeopaths and chiropractors; or denouncing psychology and preferring dianetics. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanderista-primaries-out-10-term-dem-congressman/816850/213 "2018-07-18T19:38:23Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > FWIW, although I understand what the “Abolish ICE” folks are actually saying and agree with them, I agree that the slogan itself is horrible and makes it way too easy to construct strawmen arguments like “You want completely open borders!”. Oh sure, I said the same. I feel that Lieberman should know better though before spouting the same strawman arguments (especially given the supposed goal of No Labels) and don’t really understand why **adaher** would try to give Lieberman cover for it but that’s today’s politics for ya. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanderista-primaries-out-10-term-dem-congressman/816850/214 "2018-07-18T19:53:10Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Which means they want a LOT less enforcement, because that’s what we did pre-ICE. Immigration was considered a national security issue after 9/11 for an actual reason. Let’s have that debate. Oh wait, not a single Democrat in office is willing to actually vote to abolish ICE. So we already won. What is that actual reason? The perpetrators of 9/11 were not immigrants, they were here on student visas. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanderista-primaries-out-10-term-dem-congressman/816850/215 "2018-07-18T20:14:45Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > FWIW, although I understand what the “Abolish ICE” folks are actually saying and agree with them, I agree that the slogan itself is horrible and makes it way too easy to construct strawmen arguments like “You want completely open borders!”. Some actually do, though it’s obviously up to those who believe that way to address and make the argument, not the ones who don’t. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2018, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanderista-primaries-out-10-term-dem-congressman/816850/216 "2018-07-18T21:26:06Z")
> [@dalej42](#): > > I agree 100% with you (and I know we rarely agree on politics!) Abolish ICE is a horrible theme to run on nationally. Most voters don’t know the difference between all the alphabet soup of government agencies that are responsible for immigration and all the changes that occurred after Sept. 11 and they assume ICE is the agency that’s responsible for all aspects of immigration, customs, asylum, and border enforcement. It is way too easy for the right to throw up strawman arguments about people streaming across the border along with an endless supply of drugs. Look how successful Trump has been tying immigrants to MS 13, an organisation that no one had heard of a year ago. It was “INS” or “la Migra” when I was growing up. “ICE” sounds like a rapper. But then, I had heard of MS-13 several years ago, too. And I know what a _coyote_ is. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanderista-primaries-out-10-term-dem-congressman/816850/217 "2018-07-19T00:02:54Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > She literally said “unemployment is low because everyone has two jobs”. … She flubbed that one. Off the cuff interviews are often tough for seasoned career pols … Elizabeth Warren’s lack of skill at speaking off the cuff is one of the factors that will likely wean her out of the primaries early, for example … a newb flubbing a question? Only news because this newb is so suddenly put into the national spotlight and thus under the national microscope in ways newbs usually are not. Her story grabs people for lots of reasons. Hers was the win that progressives needed to not become completely despondent over primary losses. She can effectively outreach to various demographics in ways older white men or even older white women cannot. And everyone loves a David felling Goliath unexpected upset story. I’m not going to hold her to the standard of a presidential nominee or even of a a candidate for Senate. She’s not ready for that level of play. Not sure she won’t be in the future though. She has some raw talent and the work ethic. FWIW I’ll be interested to see what happens in her career. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanderista-primaries-out-10-term-dem-congressman/816850/218 "2018-07-19T02:33:27Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > She flubbed that one. No, she didn’t flub anything; it’s people who think she flubbed the interview who flubbed the ability to understand what she was saying in its entirety. Seriously, are we going to keep falling for this “You didn’t build that” or “Spread the wealth” meme bullshit? Are we that fucking daft? No, she didn’t flub shit; people who can’t concentrate for more than 10 seconds are flubbing informed, intelligent debate - and they’re flubbing their civic responsibility to be informed voters. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanderista-primaries-out-10-term-dem-congressman/816850/219 "2018-07-19T13:07:17Z")
How is \*not \*fucking obvious that the point is about low wages and lack of benefits for a large part of the work force, requiring multiple jobs and long hours and separation from family? Or \*is \*it obvious, and this is the obstructionist response, deflection? ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2018, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanderista-primaries-out-10-term-dem-congressman/816850/220 "2018-07-19T13:17:46Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > How is \*not \*fucking obvious that the point is about low wages and lack of benefits for a large part of the work force, requiring multiple jobs and long hours and separation from family? Or \*is \*it obvious, and this is the obstructionist response, deflection? Yes, this ^ I normally don’t get so worked up over something in the elections thread, but I’m so tired of meme politics, where we take one little statement deliberately out of context and then characterize it as something else. _"Yabbut that’s literally what she said! Hah! Hah! I win!_" And then other people take the bait and agree that she misspoke and that she’s ignorant and knows nothing. No, she’s not at all ignorant; she’s completely correct in everything that she’s been criticized for saying. I have no doubt that there are gaps in her knowledge, but Christ, 60-65 million people knowingly elected an ignorant buffoon who’s destroying this country every day. That’s why Joe Lieberman is such a disingenuous traitorous bastard. He was perfectly willing to serve in arguably the most corrupt administration in American history, and yet he’s going to call out AOC. We know where his interests lie - with corrupt plutocrats and Zionists. And nowhere else. To think of all his moral grandstanding over the years, lecturing Bill Clinton on the floor of the senate as though he were some sort of paragon of virtue. At least Clinton cared for his country. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanderista-primaries-out-10-term-dem-congressman/816850.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanderista-primaries-out-10-term-dem-congressman/816850.md?page=12)