# Sanders saved by supers? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [March 10, 2016, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-saved-by-supers/748545 "2016-03-10T15:21:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-saved-by-supers/748545/101 "2016-04-11T03:06:16Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > This is what wiki wiki has to say: > > [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism) An extensive history of the term but not helping me understand what is meant by those who use it today. It seems today to be a term used in a derogatory manner to describe the beliefs of some others, _if_ I get that article and usage context right, to declare the person so identified has the “primary agenda of facilitating global capital accumulation unburdened from any legal regulations aimed at assuring welfare of citizens.” Identified as “neoliberal” is Milton Friedman. Is that the meaning you mean **camille**? If so who do you include as current neoliberals, whose age is over? I really am ignorant here and could use some help understanding what is meant by the term. I’ve only begun hearing it this cycle myself (around the same time as I began hearing the phrase cuckservative interestingly enough). ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-saved-by-supers/748545/102 "2016-04-11T03:07:58Z")
> [@camille](#): > > Then you misunderstood that quote, and most likely the larger story. > > From what I can tell here, you’re conflating foreign policy and economic policy. Some people are both neocons (FP) and neoliberals (EP), but it’s not a given. You can be one and not the other. You’re right, I misread it. Btw, the search function, even the advanced search, leaves something to be desired. You can’t go directly to the relevant post. I had to Ctrl-F the entire thread to find it. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-saved-by-supers/748545/103 "2016-04-11T03:17:08Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Sure we can talk on 4/20. But I’ve not really predicted a Hillary loss in NY, so if we do talk on 4/20 let’s bookmark this. > > What I am far more concerned about as someone who actually does, for the record, support Hillary, is where she stands after 4/26. That’s a 5-state contest that includes PA. May has contests throughout the calendar. We really oughtta have this conversation again on June 8, because that’s where all of this is headed to, I think. Sure. **camille** , do you happen to have an opinion about whether or not many Sanders supporters would feel they “won” in a hypothetical circumstance of almost but not catching up in the pledged delegate count, losing the popular vote by more, but having what they perceived to be momentum and what they believe to be significant wins in significant states with some of Sanders losses in states being those he did not really try hard in? In your opinion is **asahi** correct that failure of the supers to, as a group, go for Sanders and tilt the result to him, overriding the pledged delegate and popular vote majorities, would cause a major rift? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-saved-by-supers/748545/104 "2016-04-11T03:40:16Z")
Reading more, but obviously still only a little, the context of use for “neoliberal” seems to be typically [as here](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/1/17/1358385/-Neoliberalism-the-Democratic-Party): > [@](#): > > Democrats have been the more effective proponents of neo-liberal trade policies since Bill Clinton passed NAFTA in 1993. … Democrats have for forty years postured ‘politically’ while acting through economic policies. Jimmy Carter deregulated the railroads and airlines and appointed Paul Volcker Chairman of the Federal Reserve to protect bank assets from the ravages of inflation by engineering a major recession. Bill Clinton eliminated Glass-Steagall, de-regulated the banks, implemented austerity policies and attempted to privatize Social Security. And from his early days singing the praises of neo-liberalism at the Hamilton Project to his unconditional revival of the major economic force promoting neo-liberal policies— Wall Street and trust-fund ‘capitalists,’ Mr. Obama has repeatedly contradicted his pseudo-populist rhetoric with economic programs straight from the neo-liberal playbook. … IOW, a shorthand in-group way for some progressives to characterize Democratic leadership, from Carter through Obama, as having a primary agenda to give corporations unfettered unregulated ability to accumulate capital globally at the expense of public welfare. Does that seem right? It is admittedly based off of reading only a relatively little so may not be a fair representation. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-saved-by-supers/748545/105 "2016-04-11T03:55:04Z")
You really unfamiliar with the DLC, Al Fromm, and “third way” politics? > **[Democratic Leadership Council](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Leadership_Council)** > > The Democratic Leadership Council (DLC) was founded in 1985 and closed in 2011. Founded and directed by Al From, prominent members include Arkansas Governor Bill Clinton (who was elected president in 1992 and 1996), Delaware Senator Joe Biden (elected president in 2020), and Tennessee Senator Al Gore (who very narrowly lost the 2000 presidential election). The DLC argued that the United States Democratic Party should shift away from the leftward turn it took in the late 1960s, 1970s, and 1980s Th... > **[Third Way | United States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Way#United_States)** > > In the United States, Third Way adherents embrace fiscal conservatism to a greater extent than traditional economic liberals, advocate some replacement of welfare with workfare and sometimes have a stronger preference for market solutions to traditional problems (as in pollution markets) while rejecting pure laissez-faire economics and other libertarian positions. The Third Way style of governing was firmly adopted and partly redefined during the administration of President Bill Clinton. > As a te... If you want a better idea of how progressives view neoliberals, read Thomas Frank’s latest book “Listen, Liberal”. Here is an excerpt in Harpers: [https://harpers.org/blog/2016/02/nor-a-lender-be/](https://harpers.org/blog/2016/02/nor-a-lender-be/) And a different excerpt on his site: > **[Withering on the Vine | Thomas Frank](https://thebaffler.com/salvos/withering-vine-tom-frank)** > > Were you to draw a Venn diagram of Democrats, meritocrats, and plutocrats, the space where they intersect would be Martha’s Vineyard. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-saved-by-supers/748545/106 "2016-04-11T04:15:02Z")
Excuse me if I am being dense … are you stating that the DLC and anyone identified as “third way” is a neoliberal? I am sure those essays are fine, but I am hoping that my questions can be answered a bit more concisely. Skimming them they do not seem to offer up any straightforward answers to what I asked. Is my sense that “neoliberal” in current usage is a derogatory term to imply a lack of interest in the general economic welfare, a strong interest in as much deregulation and free market as possible with as little oversight as possible, and in general lumping, as the article I quoted from does, most Democratic leadership, from Carter to Obama as having having that as their primary economic agenda correct? To those who use that word with regularity [Clinton’s proposals for improved regulation](https://www.hillaryclinton.com/briefing/factsheets/2015/10/08/wall-street-work-for-main-street/) are “neoliberal” - and reinstating the Glass-Steagall Act to clearly separate commercial banking, investment banking and insurance services, is “progressive.” Is that a correct understanding? ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-saved-by-supers/748545/107 "2016-04-11T04:34:14Z")
I don’t think of Carter as a prime example, but I’d say what you’re stating is basically accurate, albeit simplistic. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-saved-by-supers/748545/108 "2016-04-11T04:34:23Z")
Neoliberal - _menshevik_, Republican Lite, Blue three-legged dead dog. Too clever by half, think old school organizers like Saul Alinsky are quaintly old-fashioned. Consumer capitalism is a bright shiny toy they want to improve it, fix it, tinker with it long enough, and they can transform a steam-driven people pulper into a solar-powered rainbow extruder. Like the Italian saying, they want their wife drunk and their wine bottle still full. _Feh._ ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-saved-by-supers/748545/109 "2016-04-11T04:55:02Z")
> [@camille](#): > > I don’t think of Carter as a prime example, but I’d say what you’re stating is basically accurate, albeit simplistic. Thank you. Obama - a man who can be labelled “a socialist” by the GOP and “a neoliberal”, a free market hardliner whose prime agenda is deregulation to benefit corporations at the expense of general welfare by progressives, at the same time. I knew there were reasons to love that man! (Boy the results you get google searching “Obama neoliberal”!) I really do appreciate the explanation. It does seem to me, based on that simplistic understanding, to be the progressive’s “cuckservative.” ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-saved-by-supers/748545/110 "2016-04-11T05:13:31Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Thank you. > > Obama - a man who can be labelled “a socialist” by the GOP and “a neoliberal”, a free market hardliner whose prime agenda is deregulation to benefit corporations at the expense of general welfare by progressives, at the same time. I knew there were reasons to love that man! (Boy the results you get google searching “Obama neoliberal”!) > > I really do appreciate the explanation. It does seem to me, based on that simplistic understanding, to be the progressive’s “cuckservative.” No, I think you are demonizing and/or strawmanning with that description. For the most part, they don’t _consider_ themselves _hardliners_, and they don’t _think_ of it as benefiting corporations at the _expense_ of general welfare. That’s why I suggested the Thomas Frank articles. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-saved-by-supers/748545/111 "2016-04-11T06:51:13Z")
> [@camille](#): > > If you want a better idea of how progressives view neoliberals, read Thomas Frank’s latest book “Listen, Liberal”. Here is an excerpt in Harpers: > > [Page not found | Harper's Magazine](https://harpers.org/blog/2016/02/nor-a-lender-be/) > > And a different excerpt on his site: > > [Withering on the Vine | Thomas Frank](http://thebaffler.com/salvos/withering-vine-tom-frank) Excellent reads. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-saved-by-supers/748545/112 "2016-04-11T07:03:15Z")
Well, Sanders has won what, 8 of the last 9 contests? If he continues that ratio of wins, even if he falls short in pledged delegates, he can point to his better polling against Republicans and to the fact that Democrats are getting increasingly behind him to try to sway superdelegates. Probably won’t work given his total lack of connection to the Democratic Party, but there could be a case to be made at the convention. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-saved-by-supers/748545/113 "2016-04-11T07:17:54Z")
[MSNBC’s Morning Joe has a watchable episode “Bernie gets no respect”](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyKSUMgdOr8). They think next week’s New York Primary is the make-or-break moment for Sanders. (Predictit shows him with 12% chance of beating Hillary in the NY vote.) ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-saved-by-supers/748545/114 "2016-04-11T07:37:19Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Excellent reads. Thank you. “Let them eat microloans.” It would be a miracle if Sanders were to win New York. I remember the [2008 primary](http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/02/count-all-the-v.html): Count All the Votes! February 19, 2008 By LEE SPEIGEL It’s like the Florida recount, but in Harlem. Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., was shortchanged hundreds of votes in several largely African American precincts in New York City, the New York Post reports. Eighty election districts in New York City didn’t record a single vote for Obama. Thousands for Sen. Hillary Clinton, D-N.Y., and hundreds for former No. Carolina Sen. John Edwards, somehow did. As the New York Times reports, in one largely black district in Brooklyn, the initial tally was 118 to 0, a Clinton sweep. A review showed the actual result was 118 for Clinton, 116 to Obama. Officials are blaming it on human error. Human error that somehow almost entirely worked against Obama. I’m certain Clinton and Sen. Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y., will get right on the case! Human error. Whatcha gonna do? ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-saved-by-supers/748545/115 "2016-04-11T07:51:57Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Excellent reads. Thank you. _At the closing session of the summit, bankers joined national leaders in singing “We Shall Overcome.”_ ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-saved-by-supers/748545/116 "2016-04-11T12:53:34Z")
> [@camille](#): > > No, I think you are demonizing and/or strawmanning with that description. For the most part, they don’t _consider_ themselves _hardliners_, and they don’t _think_ of it as benefiting corporations at the _expense_ of general welfare. > > That’s why I suggested the Thomas Frank articles. Okay I’ve read the articles in full now. I certainly can see how someone who has an extant perspective that the mainstream of the Democratic Party, that Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton, and the efforts of the Gates Foundation supporting ground up female entrepreneurship across the globe, is in fact actually motivated by a desire to maintain existing power relations, someone who wants to blame current Democratic leadership for changes in the world’s and the nations economies such that many small cities like Decatur are having a hard time, would read those articles with a “Can I have an Amen?!” But illuminating for those of us who want to see increased oversight of the finance industry and see wealth inequality and the hollowing out of the middle class address in more than simplistic terms, to see actual progress made? No. Demonstrating that the term “neoliberal” is anything other than the progressives’ “cuckservative” - a Tea Party style tactic to attack those who are not as “pure” as being sell out toadies, who may even be too stupid or deluded to even realize what hardline toadies they are? No. It reinforces that understanding. I appreciate that you think my understanding is simplistic and that you have a different perspective. Again thank you for the links. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-saved-by-supers/748545/117 "2016-04-11T13:17:03Z")
> [@camille](#): > > Human error. Whatcha gonna do? Well, probably assume that it WAS in error since the alternate theory is that Camp Clinton is simultaneously both looking to fix an election while being so inept that the best plan they can come up with is “suspiciously eliminate every opposing vote making it blatantly obvious that something is wrong”. Those were also, per the [NYT article](http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/16/nyregion/16vote.html?_r=2&hp&oref=slogin) your link cites, unofficial tallies. In other words, the preliminary tallies which are then checked for errors. They found errors, the errors get corrected, the system works. From the NYT: > [@](#): > > The history of New York elections has been punctuated by episodes of confusion, incompetence and even occasional corruption. And election officials and lawyers for both Mr. Obama and Mrs. Clinton agree that it is not uncommon for mistakes to be made by weary inspectors rushing on election night to transcribe columns of numbers that are delivered first to the police and then to the news media. > […] > City election officials said they were convinced that there was nothing sinister to account for the inaccurate initial counts, and The Times’s review found a handful of election districts in the city where Mrs. Clinton received zero votes in the initial results. > > “It looked like a lot of the numbers were wrong, probably the result of human error,” said Marcus Cederqvist, who was named executive director of the Board of Elections last month. He said such discrepancies between the unofficial and final count rarely affected the raw vote outcome because “they’re not usually that big.” What? There were districts with zero Clinton votes? Welp, looks like the fix is in for Sanders! ---
**Author:** ![CGav8r](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@CGav8r](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CGav8r)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-saved-by-supers/748545/118 "2016-04-11T14:14:50Z")
> [@camille](#): > > I’m a Sanders supporter who campaigned for Obama. There is no comparison. > > Obama wasn’t an outsider, and he wasn’t an unknown. He got a lot of buzz as a keynote speaker at the Dem convention. Hardball’s Chris Matthews commented at the time that he “ **got a tingle up his leg** ”, and “he knew he was looking at the First AA President”. He used veteran Dem insiders to put his campaign together, and with his activist experience he set up a remarkable grassroots organization and data collection team. > > Sanders had none of those advantages (much less the personal charisma and temperament of PBO), and yet what he has achieved is remarkable. He’s garnered 71% of the under 30 vote - a higher percentage than PBO. He’s raised more money than HRC and Ted Cruz in the last 2 months with small donors. He’s proven that an admitted leftist - a democratic socialist outsider - can run for a national election with popular support and without big money donors. > > The political coming of age of those young voters has been imprinted by this experience, and they are the future of progressive politics. The age of the neoliberals is almost done. It was actually a “thrill up his leg”, and it was in reference to candidate Obama speaking during the [Potomac Primary](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/13/chris-matthews-i-felt-thi_n_86449.html)in 2008. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-saved-by-supers/748545/119 "2016-04-11T15:42:29Z")
I find this piling on of the “neoliberals” to be somewhat ridiculous. I know people have wondered where have the moderate Republicans gone. There were quite a few of them not very long ago. I mean, Hell, 20 years ago the GOP nominated one for President. It seems quite evident that as the party went more to the right under George W. Bush, the moderate Republicans found a home in the Democratic Party. Senators Jeffords and Chafee weren’t just one off instances. If the Democratic Party decides to go all Tea Party with Progressive purity tests and whatnot, that neo-liberal core is going to find itself as Kingmakers - because where-ever they decide to put their support is the group that will win. Or they may just form a new party, which would be bigger than the Progressive Purity Test Democrats and the Conservative Purity Test Republicans. I would definitely join that new party. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-saved-by-supers/748545/120 "2016-04-11T17:41:03Z")
> [@camille](#): > > “Let them eat microloans.” > It would be a miracle if Sanders were to win New York. I remember the [2008 primary](http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/02/count-all-the-v.html): > Count All the Votes! > February 19, 2008 > By LEE SPEIGEL > > It’s like the Florida recount, but in Harlem. > > Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., was shortchanged hundreds of votes in several largely African American precincts in New York City, the New York Post reports. > > Eighty election districts in New York City didn’t record a single vote for Obama. Thousands for Sen. Hillary Clinton, D-N.Y., and hundreds for former No. Carolina Sen. John Edwards, somehow did. > > As the New York Times reports, in one largely black district in Brooklyn, the initial tally was 118 to 0, a Clinton sweep. A review showed the actual result was 118 for Clinton, 116 to Obama. > > Officials are blaming it on human error. > > Human error that somehow almost entirely worked against Obama. > > I’m certain Clinton and Sen. Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y., will get right on the case! > Human error. Whatcha gonna do? Yeah …"Barack Obama, D-Ill., was shortchanged \*hundreds \*of votes "…:dubious: \*\*1,862,445 \*\*votes cast. Hillary won by over \*\*300000 \*\*votes. :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-saved-by-supers/748545.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-saved-by-supers/748545.md?page=7)