# Sanders told to leave restaurant - why no debate? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 24, 2018, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660 "2018-06-24T11:23:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2018, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/261 "2018-06-26T20:39:28Z")
The law doesn’t require that families be separated. People who told you that are being dishonest, as evidenced by Trump signing a piece of paper saying that the separations that he ordered should no longer happen. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2018, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/262 "2018-06-26T20:41:49Z")
The law is the law…said the Nazi to the Jew, the slaver to the African, the inquisitor to the old herbwife. Legality is not morality. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2018, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/263 "2018-06-26T21:11:08Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > The law is the law…said the Nazi to the Jew, the slaver to the African, the inquisitor to the old herbwife. > > Legality is not morality. And unlike your examples we have a democracy and the ability to change law via a peaceful process. Is your proposal to just ignore whatever law we find to be politically inconvenient? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2018, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/264 "2018-06-26T21:16:14Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > And unlike your examples we have a democracy and the ability to change law via a peaceful process. Is your proposal to just ignore whatever law we find to be politically inconvenient? If you were in 1940’s germany, would you find it politically inconvenient to tell the SS where you saw the jews hiding? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2018, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/265 "2018-06-26T21:23:06Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > And unlike your examples we have a democracy and the ability to change law via a peaceful process. Is your proposal to just ignore whatever law we find to be politically inconvenient? The law does not require what you keep saying it does. The President’s signature on an order to stop separations proves that. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2018, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/266 "2018-06-26T21:39:43Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > And unlike your examples we have a democracy and the ability to change law via a peaceful process. Is your proposal to just ignore whatever law we find to be politically inconvenient? Not ignore. But we do have choices about how to enforce it. Hell, even Texas, deep-red anti-drug state that it is, allows peace officers to, at their discretion, either arrest people for possession of less than 2 ounces of marijuana, or to just issue a ticket and summons to appear without arrest. There are options. Entering the country without the proper papers is against the law. But we don’t have to enforce that law by splitting up the families and sending each member to a different facility in a different state. There are options. It’s not about the law, it’s about how it’s enforced. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2018, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/267 "2018-06-26T21:42:10Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > And unlike your examples we have a democracy and the ability to change law via a peaceful process. Is your proposal to just ignore whatever law we find to be politically inconvenient? So, you think the people sitting at the lunch counter in the south in the early 1960s were wrong? Sure they could change the law - but lots weren’t allowed to vote. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2018, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/268 "2018-06-26T21:54:28Z")
> [@logan444](#): > > If we do not like the law we need to change the law the proper way. we all know anyone in there right mind would be against separating families, assuming there is no abuse or other issues like that, however, I would not go to a foreign county and break there laws and expect to not be punished. It is important to expect the rule of law of the land, you may not like it, but you must respect it, and you can fight to change it and vote in the person you deem that will do just that. > > Does Sanders lie, yes. Should she lie as press secretary, no. I actually don’t think she wants to lie, I do not think Spicer wanted to lie, and I especially don’t think his first day on the job he wanted to tell the press that The presidents crowd size was the largest ever (even if that was the truth I don’t think he would have wanted to brag about that). I think this people are trapped, if they do not do the will of the president, then they will be fired. Its to easy to say that these people are insidious and just plain evil, people are much more complicated then that and because they lie doesn’t mean that everything they say is a lie or everything they do is inherently bad. If a person was in the situation where they would be at risk of being homeless or starving if they didn’t do evil, I could see it. Sanders is not at risk of any of those things. If she got a smidgin of morality and decided to quit, she’d make out just fine. You can kind of see people staying to try to inject some sanity in a White House where it is sorely lacking. But she doesn’t do that. She stays because she believes in Trump, which makes her a piece of slime. The standard for a press secretary is not telling the truth once in a while, but telling the truth unless there is a good reason not to. She lies more than any press secretary in history. But probably less than Trump who contradicts himself inside a single sentence. > [@](#): > > I listen to Bill Maher say that he hopes the president fails and we end up in a recession. Thats crazy kinda of talk, he is using his anger to drive a crazy agenda. whatever ones political party, it is imperative that our country on a whole to do well financially, if our country suffers, then every other country suffers, and every other country has less to start with. Therefore, you are hoping that the poor and those close to being poor become stricken with financial burdens that they can never recover from in there life times. We all need to be better and see things for what they truly are, and not look for the first person or party to blame for things not going the way we want them too. As a whole we all must be wiser then that, and look to what is the best outcome for everyone. I’m expecting a recession, because one is overdue and because I have full faith that Trump will screw things up enough to drive us into one. Perhaps the coming trade war. And I hope the pain falls primarily on those who still support Agent Orange, because they deserve it. It looks like the retaliatory tariffs are targeting red states. Our trade partners are smarter than Trump gives them credit for. And their reaction is exactly what anyone with any brains would have predicted. France, Germany, China, Canada and Mexico are not contractors whom Trump can stiff with no pushback. I’ve structured my investments to weather a recession, and when one comes I will donate to charities targeting those not culpable for the mess. The Koch brothers can bail out the Trumpists. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2018, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/269 "2018-06-26T22:30:18Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > And unlike your examples we have a democracy and the ability to change law via a peaceful process. Is your proposal to just ignore whatever law we find to be politically inconvenient? Again, are you trying to say that Trump had no choice but to enforce the existing law? If that’s true, how could the policy change with an executive order? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2018, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/270 "2018-06-26T23:09:19Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > If you were in 1940’s germany, would you find it politically inconvenient to tell the SS where you saw the jews hiding? The US is so like Nazi Germany that millions of people flee their miserable and failed states to move here? That makes perfect sense. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2018, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/271 "2018-06-26T23:20:24Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > The US is so like Nazi Germany that millions of people flee their miserable and failed states to move here? That makes perfect sense. We seem to be working in that direction. I would not call a law or policy that asks for us to treat others in cruel and inhumane ways “politically inconvenient.” To do so is to allow ourselves to become more like Nazi Germany than some of us would like. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2018, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/272 "2018-06-27T05:14:04Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > This story says nothing about immigration or asylum. And your link doesn’t contain any description of a violation of the law by immigration officials. > > The link you offer contains a story about a woman who was first stopped during Obama’s presidency: > > She’s not seeking asylum. She has no particular right to enter. She was told to obtain a visa: > > This is not unheard-of. I didn’t claim that she was immigrating or seeking asylum, the whole point was that she was just an innocent casual visitor, but apparently turned away for no good reason. And it’s part of a pattern, the commonality being “brown-skinned, funny names, are or might be Muslim” – some other examples: > **[U.S. border agents under microscope after Canadians denied entry | CBC News](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/canadian-woman-turned-away-border-1.4013478)** > > A lawyer working for a prominent civil rights organization in the U.S. says border patrol agents have been acting in “arbitrary and capricious” ways for years. But what can Canadians do if they're unhappy with their treatment at the border? > **[Canadian woman denied entry into U.S. after questions about religion, Trump |...](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/canadian-woman-turned-away-from-u-s-border-after-questions-about-religion-trump-1.3972019)** > > Fadwa Alaoui, a woman from Brossard, Que., who's entered the U.S. several times without incident, says she was turned away at the border Saturday after being questioned in detail about her religion and her views on Donald Trump. > **[Canadian denied entry to U.S. after being questioned on mosque connections |...](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/another-canadian-citizen-refused-entry-united-states-border-1.3976230)** > > Yassine Aber is the fifth Canadian citizen of Moroccan heritage to this week be refused entry at Quebec's border with the United States. And the US Embassy disagrees with you about the visa. Yes, it’s unheard of in this situation. Border Patrol told her she’d need to go to the embassy for a visa, but since Canadian citizens don’t ever need a visa to enter the US for a non-business visit, the embassy couldn’t help her and told her that her problem was with Border Patrol and DHS – so she’s caught in the middle in a bureaucratic Catch-22. Of course, what always remains unknown in these situations are potential legitimate factors that the media may not know about and are not reported, but there seems to be a growing list of people of the kind that Trump doesn’t like all being turned away with no good explanation. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2018, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/273 "2018-06-27T15:00:48Z")
The Case for Incivility Confronting officials isn’t new. But it’s necessary. > **[The Case for Incivility](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/06/incivility-toward-trump-officials-isnt-new-but-its-necessary.html)** > > Confronting officials isn’t new. But it’s necessary. > [@](#): > > It is routinely said that political incivility is counterproductive—that rudeness and caustic or intemperate rhetoric can alienate potential allies and provoke a backlash from political opponents. If this were always or reliably true, the American right would have been decimated long ago. Instead, they’ve just elected a man who has encouraged political violence—a casual racist and misogynist and an unrepentant boor—to the presidency of the United States. The Republican Party holds the House, the Senate, and total control of government in 26 states. The right’s turn toward incivility has, plainly, been a spectacular success for fairly obvious reasons: Rude and extreme rhetoric has galvanized and mobilized the Republican base by catastrophizing the consequences of Democratic governance and demographic change. This has won the right the support of less–ideologically committed and active voters who have found the rhetoric of Trump and precursors like Sarah Palin relatable, refreshing, and “honest.” > > Politics is a complicated business. Sometimes nice guys win. Sometimes they lose. And sometimes they do things that aren’t very nice. In tweets criticizing liberals over the protests and shaming of Trump officials, the Atlantic’s Conor Friedersdorf invoked Martin Luther King as a moral example worth following on the “ ‘civility works better’ side,” as critics of contemporary liberal and left activism and identity politics often do. In fact, King spoke out against those who characterized forms of nonviolent activism as uncivil. “I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate,” he wrote in his “Letter from a Birmingham Jail,” “who is more devoted to ‘order’ than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: ‘I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action.’ ” And, of course, many of the civil rights movement’s now-romanticized and revered sit-ins were literally attempts to interrupt meals served by and to people the movement’s activists disagreed with. It is hard to imagine the pundit class reacting positively to hundreds or even a thousand liberal activists crowding into, say, a bakery that refuses to sell wedding cakes to gay people, in an attempt to shut it down or force compliance with their political beliefs. That is precisely what civil rights activists did. ---
**Author:** ![Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/son_of_a_rich/32/5439_2.png) [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Son_of_a_Rich)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2018, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/274 "2018-06-27T17:33:00Z")
Of course the owner was right to kick her out. It’s in his best interest not to spoil the appetites of his other customers. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2018, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/275 "2018-06-27T17:49:14Z")
It would be understandable if she has been doing something overt, like getting into a fight or being drunk and disorderly. We’re heading up a dangerously slippery slope if owners can eject people just because they don’t like someone. How is that any different from racism or other forms of bigotry? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2018, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/276 "2018-06-27T17:50:32Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > It would be understandable if she has been doing something overt, like getting into a fight or being drunk and disorderly. We’re heading up a dangerously slippery slope if owners can eject people just because they don’t like someone. How is that any different from racism or other forms of bigotry? This is sarcasm, right? ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2018, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/277 "2018-06-27T19:37:08Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > It would be understandable if she has been doing something overt, like getting into a fight or being drunk and disorderly. We’re heading up a dangerously slippery slope if owners can eject people just because they don’t like someone. How is that any different from racism or other forms of bigotry? Once more for those in the back - being an asshole is not a protected class. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2018, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/278 "2018-06-27T19:43:34Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > It would be understandable if she has been doing something overt, like getting into a fight or being drunk and disorderly. We’re heading up a dangerously slippery slope if owners can eject people just because they don’t like someone. How is that any different from racism or other forms of bigotry? Yeah, they just “didn’t like her.” Six pages in and you still don’t get it. ---
**Author:** ![Crazy\_Canuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazy_canuck/32/5282_2.png) [@Crazy\_Canuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazy_Canuck)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2018, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/279 "2018-06-27T19:47:36Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > It would be understandable if she has been doing something overt [snip] You may not consider being the mouthpiece for an administration that is ripping children out of their parents arms overt, but many others, including myself, consider that pretty fucking overt. Also, businesses have had the right to refuse service for decades (except for protected classes) and there was no slippery slope then, so please explain to me why you think there suddenly is one now. The answer to the second question is that it’s obviously different from racism or other forms of bigotry because she is being held responsible for her actions, not her innate characteristics. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2018, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/280 "2018-06-27T20:19:05Z")
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