# Sanders told to leave restaurant - why no debate? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 24, 2018, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660 "2018-06-24T11:23:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2018, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/421 "2018-06-29T19:51:06Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > Was SHS doing either of these things? Yes. She is always being an asshole. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2018, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/422 "2018-06-29T20:53:22Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > No cite necessary. It’s common sense that whenever you bar a customer, you risk shooting yourself in the foot. If your customers agree, then you’re in the clear, though you always risk alienating others. Shooting yourself in the foot is an analogy, by the way, for some that don’t quite understand metaphorical language. > Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk That’s an entirely different claim than what you’ve been saying. Let me refresh your memory: > [@Biffster](#): > > Doing her job as press secretary does not mean she is an asshole, and _even assholes have a right to be served_ at any rate. I hate her politics, and I hate her boss even more, but she still has a right to be treated as a human being. To do less than that is deplorable. If she freaks out or poses a danger to herself and others, then by all means eject her. But not before that threshold has been reached. > [@Biffster](#): > > OMFG, you really need to learn what Discrimination is and why it’s against the law. The _right to refuse service because you just don’t like someone is effectively no different than racism_. I’m amazed that you can’t see that. italics mine. You’ve been claiming that she has the right to be served. You then changed your argument to suggest that it’s illegal to discriminate against her. I asked you for cites but you produced none. Re-reading this, I’d like to know what you feel she was discriminated against for. And with that, was it a for being part of a protected class? In any case, you just changed your entire argument. What started out as a rights violation has now morphed into them risking aliening their customers. There’s a pretty big gap between stripping someone of their rights and annoying your customers. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2018, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/423 "2018-06-29T21:37:41Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Were the gay couple acting like assholes when they went in to order their cake? I don’t know. I wasn’t there. I don’t think they should have been refused either. The SCOTUS made a mistake last week. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2018, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/424 "2018-06-29T21:38:43Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Yes. She is always being an asshole. I see. Perception is reality. Good thing no one would ever say that about you or I. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2018, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/425 "2018-06-29T21:41:33Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > I see. Perception is reality. Good thing no one would ever say that about you or I. Well, no, they wouldn’t, because our jobs do not have us standing in front of the cameras for millions of people to watch as we lie to justify the administrations behavior. If I had a job that gave me that much public exposure, then I would expect that my actions in that job would have an effect on the way I am received by the public. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2018, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/426 "2018-06-29T21:43:37Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > That’s an entirely different claim than what you’ve been saying. Let me refresh your memory: > > italics mine. > > You’ve been claiming that she has the right to be served. You then changed your argument to suggest that it’s illegal to discriminate against her. I asked you for cites but you produced none. Re-reading this, I’d like to know what you feel she was discriminated against for. And with that, was it a for being part of a protected class? > > In any case, you just changed your entire argument. What started out as a rights violation has now morphed into them risking aliening their customers. There’s a pretty big gap between stripping someone of their rights and annoying your customers. I’ve changed my entire argument in your mind maybe. In my mind it’s pretty consistent. I grew up with the notion that the customer is always right, famous or not. Or to put it another way, you err on the side of generousity when treating customers. Sarah Sanders and her entourage did nothing wrong by seeking a restaurant to eat at one evening. This is bigotry whether she was part of a “protected class” or not. It shouldn’t happen with reputable businesses. I’m all for Democrats, but this was not the way to get things done. It makes the restaurant owners seem childish. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2018, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/427 "2018-06-29T21:45:06Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Well, no, they wouldn’t, because our jobs do not have us standing in front of the cameras for millions of people to watch as we lie to justify the administrations behavior. > > If I had a job that gave me that much public exposure, then I would expect that my actions in that job would have an effect on the way I am received by the public. Ever heard of “don’t shoot the messenger”? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2018, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/428 "2018-06-29T21:51:11Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > I’ve changed my entire argument in your mind maybe. In my mind it’s pretty consistent. I grew up with the notion that the customer is always right, famous or not. Right there is your problem. The customer is not always right. In fact, the customer is very often wrong. > [@](#): > > Or to put it another way, you err on the side of generousity when treating customers. No, you humor reasonable requests by customers, as they are, ultimately, your source of income. You do not err on the side of generosity, that’s how you lose money and go out of business. > [@](#): > > Sarah Sanders and her entourage did nothing wrong by seeking a restaurant to eat at one evening. No, she did something wrong when she went to work that morning. She continued to do wrong when she didn’t quit before she left. > [@](#): > > This is bigotry whether she was part of a “protected class” or not. It shouldn’t happen with reputable businesses. I’m all for Democrats, but this was not the way to get things done. It makes the restaurant owners seem childish. It is not bigotry, as that would be against a group of people. This is against a single person for specific, articulable reasons. Put it this way, if Bill Cosby shows up at your establishment, would you take his business? He didn’t rape any of _your_ employees, and is not currently raping anyone, so by your logic, you would have to take him. > [@Biffster](#): > > Ever heard of “don’t shoot the messenger”? Yes, and that doesn’t apply in the slightest here. She is not simply a messenger, that would be the TV that you watch her lies on. She is the spokesperson. She is not just relaying messages, she is actively lying and defending the administrations behavior and policies. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2018, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/429 "2018-06-29T21:59:02Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > I’ve changed my entire argument in your mind maybe. In my mind it’s pretty consistent. I grew up with the notion that the customer is always right, famous or not. Or to put it another way, you err on the side of generousity when treating customers. Sarah Sanders and her entourage did nothing wrong by seeking a restaurant to eat at one evening. This is bigotry whether she was part of a “protected class” or not. It shouldn’t happen with reputable businesses. I’m all for Democrats, but this was not the way to get things done. It makes the restaurant owners seem childish. Herd this one before. [URGES GOOD WILL BY JEWS FOR NAZIS; Prof. Cadbury of Society of Friends Says It Will Gain More Than Will Hate. DECRIES BOYCOTT AS ‘WAR’](https://mobile.nytimes.com/1934/06/15/archives/urges-good-will-by-jews-for-nazis-prof-cadbury-of-society-of.html) The one thing that a tolerant society cannot afford to tolerate is intolerance. Sarah Sanders is not just the White House Press Secretary, she was a senior adviser for Donald Trump’s 2016 presidential campaign and is not some innocent worker. Waters was encouraging protest and harassment; which are usually protected by the First Amendment. Lets look at Trump’s response. “Congresswoman Maxine Waters, an extraordinarily low IQ person, has become, together with Nancy Pelosi, the Face of the Democrat Party. She has just called for harm to supporters, of which there are many, of the Make America Great Again movement. Be careful what you wish for Max!” And lets review that it is Trump who has called for violence in the past. > [@](#): > > “I’d like to punch him in the face” > “Maybe he should have been roughed up” > “Part of the problem is no one wants to hurt each other anymore” > “The audience hit back. That’s what we need a little bit more of” > “If you do (hurt him), I’ll defend you in court, don’t worry about it” > “I’ll beat the crap out of you” > “Knock the crap out of him, would you? I promise you, I will pay your legal fees” In addition he: Called violent nazis “fine people.” Leveraging religion to justify all manner of discrimination. Gross, reckless fabrications about Muslims and Mexicans and immigrants. Ignoring evidence of a Russian interference that threatens our national sovereignty, irrespective of his potential involvement. Unhinged Twitter rants against private citizens and their businesses, against celebrities and political opponents and world leaders. Now Trump wants to pretend to be civilized? Now Tump and his followers want to talk about measured debate? Now his fans are waggin your finger at Democrats for being disrespectful? Now they want to shame the Democrats for supposed lack of manners? Now they want to gaslight Democrats into guilt and apology—as if they’ve lost their dignity? Trump doesn’t get to play that card. That request is off the table for him. He lost that moral high ground somewhere between excusing his mocking of a disabled reporter and celebrating brown-skinned kids in cages. We need to make life hard on the intolerant, as it is the only way we can maintain a tolerant society. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2018, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/430 "2018-06-29T22:10:24Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > I’ve changed my entire argument in your mind maybe. In my mind it’s pretty consistent. > \ > Sarah Sanders and her entourage did nothing wrong by seeking a restaurant to eat at one evening. This is bigotry whether she was part of a “protected class” or not. You claimed that what the restaurant did was illegal. Calling something illegal and saying that something shouldn’t happen because you disagree with it are two very different things. When you claim that something is illegal, you can point to the law that states this fact. When you say something shouldn’t have played out the way it did, well, that’s just, like, your opinion, man. However, when you start by calling something illegal, then try to quietly switch over to saying that it shouldn’t happen because it’s bad for business, that’s changing your argument. Why don’t we start over. Did the restaurant do something illegal or take away someone’s rights? Can you tell us what law they broke, right they took away or how they did something illegal? If you can’t back that up, you really don’t have an argument. On the other hand, if you are saying that kicking her out is bad for business, that’s different. If that’s what you want to argue, have at it. It’s really just about opinions at that point. And, to be clear, you’re not going to gaslight me into thinking that I’m simply interpreting your argument differently. All your posts are there to read, you can see how they changed. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2018, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/431 "2018-06-29T22:17:15Z")
They evolved. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2018, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/432 "2018-06-29T22:23:35Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > I’ve changed my entire argument in your mind maybe. In my mind it’s pretty consistent. I grew up with the notion that the customer is always right, famous or not. Or to put it another way, you err on the side of generousity when treating customers. Remind us again which law pertains to that, please. > [@Biffster](#): > > Sarah Sanders and her entourage did nothing wrong by seeking a restaurant to eat at one evening. No one has said she or they did. > [@Biffster](#): > > This is bigotry whether she was part of a “protected class” or not. No, I don’t think I’m inclined to let you re-define “bigotry” that way; I’m going to stick with the current definition. > [@Biffster](#): > > It shouldn’t happen with reputable businesses. I’m all for Democrats, but this was not the way to get things done. It makes the restaurant owners seem childish. And I agree that you’re entitled to your opinion, no matter how far it diverges from reality. But none of us is obligated to accept it or to not mention how utterly divorced from the facts it is. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2018, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/433 "2018-06-29T22:52:32Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Herd this one before. > > [URGES GOOD WILL BY JEWS FOR NAZIS; Prof. Cadbury of Society of Friends Says It Will Gain More Than Will Hate. DECRIES BOYCOTT AS ‘WAR’](https://mobile.nytimes.com/1934/06/15/archives/urges-good-will-by-jews-for-nazis-prof-cadbury-of-society-of.html) > > The one thing that a tolerant society cannot afford to tolerate is intolerance. > > Sarah Sanders is not just the White House Press Secretary, she was a senior adviser for Donald Trump’s 2016 presidential campaign and is not some innocent worker. > > Waters was encouraging protest and harassment; which are usually protected by the First Amendment. > > Lets look at Trump’s response. > > “Congresswoman Maxine Waters, an extraordinarily low IQ person, has become, together with Nancy Pelosi, the Face of the Democrat Party. She has just called for harm to supporters, of which there are many, of the Make America Great Again movement. Be careful what you wish for Max!” > > And lets review that it is Trump who has called for violence in the past. > > In addition he: > > Called violent nazis “fine people.” > Leveraging religion to justify all manner of discrimination. > Gross, reckless fabrications about Muslims and Mexicans and immigrants. > Ignoring evidence of a Russian interference that threatens our national sovereignty, irrespective of his potential involvement. > Unhinged Twitter rants against private citizens and their businesses, against celebrities and political opponents and world leaders. > > Now Trump wants to pretend to be civilized? > Now Tump and his followers want to talk about measured debate? > Now his fans are waggin your finger at Democrats for being disrespectful? > Now they want to shame the Democrats for supposed lack of manners? > Now they want to gaslight Democrats into guilt and apology—as if they’ve lost their dignity? > > Trump doesn’t get to play that card. That request is off the table for him. > He lost that moral high ground somewhere between excusing his mocking of a disabled reporter and celebrating brown-skinned kids in cages. > > We need to make life hard on the intolerant, as it is the only way we can maintain a tolerant society. These are all excellent reasons—to punish Trump. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2018, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/434 "2018-06-29T22:54:19Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > You claimed that what the restaurant did was illegal. Calling something illegal and saying that something shouldn’t happen because you disagree with it are two very different things. > > When you claim that something is illegal, you can point to the law that states this fact. When you say something shouldn’t have played out the way it did, well, that’s just, like, your opinion, man. However, when you start by calling something illegal, then try to quietly switch over to saying that it shouldn’t happen because it’s bad for business, that’s changing your argument. > > Why don’t we start over. > > Did the restaurant do something illegal or take away someone’s rights? Can you tell us what law they broke, right they took away or how they did something illegal? > > If you can’t back that up, you really don’t have an argument. > > On the other hand, if you are saying that kicking her out is bad for business, that’s different. If that’s what you want to argue, have at it. It’s really just about opinions at that point. > > And, to be clear, you’re not going to gaslight me into thinking that I’m simply interpreting your argument differently. All your posts are there to read, you can see how they changed. Fine. The restaurant did nothing that’s by the book illegal. Happy now? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2018, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/435 "2018-06-29T23:04:16Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > These are all excellent reasons—to punish Trump. So, the administration is limited to only trump? You are saying that if trump himself came in, then it would be okay to deny him service? How about sessions, who helps implement these policies? Or other cabinet members for their failings of the american people? I’ll agree that the white house landscapers have no influence over policy, so kicking them out over the white house’s actions would be a bit harsh. But I would argue that SHS is closer in level of having an impact on the policies and actions of the white house that holding her accountable is fair. You feel that she is less culpable, and so shouldn’t be held responsible by the public for the actions she represents. That is a difference of opinion that I can respect. For my part, I probably would not deny service to any of these people, as, if nothing else, most of my customers are conservatives, and while not exactly trump supporters, align closely enough that it would be a poor business decision. I would not have made the same decision as the restaurant owner, but I completely respect her right to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2018, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/436 "2018-06-29T23:08:28Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > So, the administration is limited to only trump? You are saying that if trump himself came in, then it would be okay to deny him service? > > How about sessions, who helps implement these policies? > > Or other cabinet members for their failings of the american people? > > I’ll agree that the white house landscapers have no influence over policy, so kicking them out over the white house’s actions would be a bit harsh. > > But I would argue that SHS is closer in level of having an impact on the policies and actions of the white house that holding her accountable is fair. You feel that she is less culpable, and so shouldn’t be held responsible by the public for the actions she represents. > > That is a difference of opinion that I can respect. For my part, I probably would not deny service to any of these people, as, if nothing else, most of my customers are conservatives, and while not exactly trump supporters, align closely enough that it would be a poor business decision. I would not have made the same decision as the restaurant owner, but I completely respect her right to do so. One thing the restaurant owner did that was helpful was to get a discussion going at the very least. That discussion gets people to consider the culpability if those who are involved in a crooked administration. So there’s that. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2018, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/437 "2018-06-29T23:10:28Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > Ever heard of “don’t shoot the messenger”? That is an invalid metaphor in this case because we are not discussing shooting her here. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2018, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/438 "2018-06-29T23:28:51Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > Fine. The restaurant did nothing that’s by the book illegal. Happy now? Yup. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2018, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/439 "2018-06-29T23:35:33Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > Perhaps you don’t get the analogy. > [@Biffster](#): > > Had there been a sign that says “We don’t serve Republicans,” maybe it would have been fair. …lets break this down. As an analogy this is a fail. Its a fail because it doesn’t compare something to anything for the purposes of explanation or clarification. What you’ve done instead is offer a suggestion. “If they did this, then that would have been fair” is a suggestion, not an analogy. In addition to that there was no reason for the the restaurant to have a sign saying “we don’t serve Republicans” because they didn’t have a policy of not serving Republicans. They didn’t have a sign saying “We don’t serve members of the Trump Regime” because they didn’t have a policy of not serving members of the Trump regime. What your suggestion shows is that you still have a fundamental disconnect with what actually happened here. This wasn’t a planned event. The owner of the restaurant got a call from their staff to say that SHS was dining and made the decision to ask SHS to leave based on the wishes of the staff that were working that night. So the suggestion they could have put up a sign bears no relation to the situation at hand. It nonsense as a solution, and its nonsense as an analogy. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2018, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660/440 "2018-06-29T23:39:04Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > That is an invalid metaphor in this case because we are not discussing shooting her here. Apparently there’s more than one of us here who doesn’t understand analogies. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sanders-told-to-leave-restaurant-why-no-debate/816660.md?page=23)